Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

Episodes of Mormon Miscellaneous, a talk show on Mormon history, scripture, doctrine and many controversial topics, by LDS host, Van Hale, now in its 38th year. All points of view are welcomed.
Which Bible?
May 30th, 2008 by mormonmisc at 3:02 pm

Which Bible?

The question, Which Bible should we read? is a question many have never considered - many who insist that the Bible is God's complete, final and infallible word. The fact is that a consensus has never been reached even among mainstream Christianity as to which of the many, many Bibles of Christianity today and throughout Christian history is THE Bible. The history of the Bible is very complex.

The following is but a very small list of aspects related to its history: Scrolls, manuscripts, texts, codex, collections, councils, creeds, disputed books, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, canonization, translations, Septuagint, Law/Prophets/Writings, Samitaritan Penteuch, Latin Vulgate, Masoretic text, Textus Receptus, Marcion, Jerome, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, theological motivations, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi, lost scripture, ancient translations, modern translations, textual criticism.

I briefly discuss a number of topics from this list and give some of my personal reflections and conclusions drawn from many years of personal interest in the question, Which Bible?

Callers and Email

Discussion of:

Joseph Smith's last Conference sermon: reports of the sermon, compiling, editing and preparation for publication

Literal interpretation of Genesis

Brigham Young's view of the Genesis account of creation

Adam God Theory


Jehovah in the Old Testament


Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

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This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

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  • Art Bulla

    In rebuttal to Mr. Hale’s belief that the Adam God doctrine was not doctrine or that persons would not be accountable for not believing it, treating it with indiffernece, or rejecting it, please listen to my broadcast on the Discourse Before the Veil at the St. George Temple:

    Nov 27, 2008 at 9:45 pm
  • Art Bulla

    Once again Mr. Hale has demonstrated an extreme mendacity when, upon my air,, he called in regarding the Adam God doctrine, which I know to be true, who denied that Brigham Young had ever taught this in a”Discourse before the Veil” in the St. George Temple and that such a discourse even existed! I am including here this discourse as recorded by L. John Nuttall in his Journal per command of BY and also another journal source proving that Mr. Hale is a liar and a fraud and should be ashamed, but knows no shame, saith the Lord:

    Lecture at the Veil

    In 1877 Brigham Young asked L. John Nuttall, his private secretary, to transcribe the endowment ceremony in a book now in the LDS Archives in Salt Lake City. Fortunately, Elder Nuttall also transcribed part of the temple ritual’s “lecture at the veil” into his own personal diary (Journal 2: December 1876 - August 1877), which is in the BYU Special Collections, in Provo, Utah. The “lecture” reveals that Brigham Young’s “Adam-God Doctrine” was taught in the temple ceremonies.

    He writes:

    “In January 1877, shortly after the lower portion of the St. George Temple was dedicated, President Brigham Young, in following up in the Endowments written, became convinced that it was necessary to have the formula of the Endowments written, and he gave directions to have the same put in writing.

    Shortly afterwards he explained what the Lecture at the Veil should portray, and for this purpose appointed a day when he would personally deliver the Lecture at the Veil. Elder J.D.T. McAllister and L. John Nuttall prepared writing material, and as the President spoke they took down his words. Elder Nuttall put the same into form and the writing was submitted to President Young on the same evening at his office in residence at St. George. He there made such changes as he deemed proper, and when he finally passed upon it said: This is the Lecture at the Veil to be observed in the Temple.

    A copy of the Lecture is kept at the St. George Temple, in which Presi-dent Young refers to Adam in his creation &c.

    /s/ L. John Nuttall For Presidents W. Woodruff Geo. Q. Cannon Jos. F. Smith June 3, 1892 Salt Lake City” (Source: L. John Nuttall Papers; BYU Special Collections, Mss 188, Letterpress copy book #4, p. 290.)

    Brigham’s Lecture at the Veil (Original Spelling & Grammar)

    In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it.

    these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem.

    This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

    We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in.

    we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned.

    We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life.

    for we read “from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return” Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth.

    Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness.

    and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father.

    Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in.

    and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child.

    it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species.

    but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Moses’s dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve.

    Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinews.

    but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life.

    Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit that was nesesary that they might be together that man might be.

    the woman was found in trans-gression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.

    [Four lines without any writing on them.]

    Father Adam’s oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit [glory] to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth.

    they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came.

    I felt myself much blessed in being permitted to associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me-

    (Source: Journal of L. John Nuttall; BYU Special Collections; Pres. Brigham Young; delivered in St. George; Wed., Feb. 7, 1877. This was the first draft of the Lecture at the Veil. Brother L. John Nuttall was the private secretary to President Brigham Young until his (Brigham’s) death in 1877. He then became the private secretary to President John Taylor (1879-1887) and again to President Wilford Woodruff (1887-1892)

    From Another Journal: Apparently about this time a change in the temple instructions were made, because of the unbelief and disagreements that were caused over this doctrine. One elder records the following in his journal:

    Brother Horne and I chatted again tonight about the Gospel and the Adam-God Doctrine, as we have done many times before. Brother Horne, who grew up in Salt Lake City and was the son of Richard Horne and grandson of Joseph Horne, said–in reference to the Adam-God Doctrine–that when he first went through the Temple (Salt Lake) for his endowment in 1902 before going on his mission he was surprised to hear the teachings during the temple ceremony that “Adam was our God” and that “He came here with Eve, one of His wives.” Also, it was taught that “Eve bore our spirits” (i.e., the spirits of all men). He asked his father about it but he declined to give any opinion about it. After Brother Horne returned from his mission a few years later, in 1905, he noted these teachings had been removed from the temple ceremony. He feels that they were left over from Brigham Young’s influence, but that he himself (Brother Horne) couldn’t believe such doctrine. He thinks perhaps Brigham just got off in his speculation. (From C. Jess Groesbeck’s Elders Journal, Vol. 1, p. 291)

    Other changes, though very small, began their slow, but sure dissolving powers upon that doctrine. In a regularly sung hymn the words once read:

    Sons of MICHAEL, he approaches! Rise; THE ETERNAL FATHER greet; Bow ye thousands, low before him; Minister before his feet; . . . [149](Sacred Hymns for Church of J.C. of L.D.S., 20th ed., 1891, pp. 375, 376)

    This song sometime later was changed to read:

    Sons of Michael, he approaches! Rise; the ANCIENT Father greet; . . .

    I testify the doctrine is the most important doctrine ever revealed in agreement with Eliza R. Snow who also said,

    When Brigham Young proclaimed to the nations that Adam was our Father and God, and Eve, his partner, the Mother of a world–both in a mortal and celestial sense–he made the most important revelation ever oracled to the race since the days of Adam himself. (Women of Mormondom, Edward W. Tullidge, p. 196)

    Nov 30, 2008 at 4:10 pm
  • Art Bulla

    On his program today, Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 Mr. Hale, immediately preceeding my call to his program with a long and baleful slander of Mr. Tullidge, stated that Eliza R. Snow was in no way responsible for the quote above, I called him what his is, a rash liar, and as proof that the pen of Eliza R. Snow was the main inspiration and source of the language of the book, “Women of Mormondom” I give the following few references available establishing the fact that Eliza assisted in the preparation of and indeed is responsible for the prose contained therein, giving the lie to to the long untruth told by Mr. Hale:

    From the Life of Joseph Smith In the spring of 1836, after three years of work and sacrifice, the Kirtland Saints finally saw their beautiful temple complete, the first temple in this dispensation. On Sunday, March 27, more than 900 people gathered in the temple chapel and vestibule for the dedicatory service. Many others met in an overflow session in a nearby schoolroom, while still others listened outside the open windows of the temple. The Prophet himself helped to seat the faithful. The congregation heard an address by Sidney Rigdon, a counselor in the First Presidency, and then joined together to sing “Now Let Us Rejoice” and “Adam-ondi-Ahman,” written by William W. Phelps. Joseph Smith then rose to offer the dedicatory prayer, which he had received by revelation. In the prayer, he described many of the remarkable blessings that are bestowed upon those who come in worthiness to God’s temples (see D&C 109). The choir sang “The Spirit of God,” and the congregation then stood and gave the Hosanna Shout “with such power as seemed almost sufficient to raise the roof from the building.”1 “Let thy house be filled,” the Prophet said in the dedicatory prayer, “as with a rushing mighty wind, with thy glory” (D&C 109:37). This was literally fulfilled, for many Saints testified that heavenly beings were present during the dedication service. Eliza R. Snow recalled: “The ceremonies of that dedication may be rehearsed, but no mortal language can describe the heavenly manifestations of that memorable day. Angels appeared to some, while a sense of divine presence was realized by all present, and each heart was filled with ‘joy inexpressible and full of glory’ [see 1 Peter 1:8].”2

    1. Eliza R. Snow, quoted in Edward W. Tullidge, The Women of Mormondom (1877), p. 94. 2. Eliza R. Snow, quoted in The Women of Mormondom, p. 95.

    Just after the October Conference of 1876, Sister Eliza entered upon the superintendency of the “Woman’s Store,” a Commission House for Utah home made goods. Officers and employees were women. During this year she prepared her second volume of poems for the press, also assisted in selecting and preparing the manuscripts for the “Women of Mormondom,” and in raising funds for its publication, and not least of all, gave the proof her attention. Also still continued her labors in the House of the Lord. At this time occurred the death of President Brigham Young.

    As early as 1856 she had published her first volume of poems, embodying religious, historical and political themes. Twenty years later she prepared a second volume of poems for the press, and also assisted in the publication of Tullidge’s “Women of Mormondom.” History of Utah By Orson Ferguson Whitney

    The Personal Writings of Eliza Roxcy Snow Maureen Ursenbach Beecher, editor Volume 5, Life Writings of Frontier Women series, edited by Maureen Ursenbach Beecher Perhaps the most famous woman in Mormon history, Eliza Roxcy Snow was a person of high standing and many accomplishments. She married Joseph Smith secretly in 1842 and wed Brigham Young after Smith’s death. She was also the sister of Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS Church. Best known as “Zion’s poetess,” her prominence also earned her the appellations of “priestess,” and “prophetess.” Capable of producing a poem for virtually any special occasion, she came to be considered the first lady of Mormon letters, having written, by her own count, nine published volumes. Her leadership among Mormon women is demonstrated by her positions as president of the Relief Society (the church’s organization for women), president of the Deseret Hospital Association, and organizer of the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Association, the children’s Primary Association, and the Woman’s Commission Store. Compiled in this volume are her autobiographical writings, including “Sketch of My Life,” originally written for inclusion in Edward W. Tullidge’s The Women of Mormondom, published in 1877, and revised for Hubert Howe Bancroft’s proposed series of histories of the western territories; her Nauvoo journal and notebook, which are the earliest, but most recently discovered, of her extant chronicles; and her trail diaries, covering February 1846 to May 1847 and June 1847 to September 1849. Together they provide valuable insights into both mid-nineteenth century Mormon society and Eliza R. Snow’s life, revealing much about a public woman who tried to guard her privacy. ISBN 1-58958-012-5 $225.00

    Mr. Hale is no scholar and again, is a fraud, with an axe to grind against Mormonism. My radio program tonight will deal with this. A podcast can be downloaded


    Art Bulla

    Nov 30, 2008 at 10:14 pm
  • dewey olsen

    I found a Wonderful site on Isaiah! The site has free lessons on every chapter. Very well done and in the author’s own voice. Every Isaiah Chapter has the Analytical Commentary of Isaiah. Enjoy this personable verse-by-verse commentary of Isaiah by well-known Hebrew scholar Avraham Gileadi.

    “Dr. Gileadi is the only LDS scholar I know of who is thoroughly competent to teach the words of Isaiah”—Professor Hugh Nibley, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. (1. 6. 2003)

    “It is my testimony that this man has been brought forward and trained at this time to help those inside the Church into Isaiah, and those outside the Church, Jew and Gentile, through Isaiah into the Church” —Arthur Henry King, author, former BYU professor and London Temple President.

    “Dr. Gileadi has achieved a major breakthrough in the investigation of a book of such complexity and importance as the Book of Isaiah”—Professor David Noel Freedman, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan.

    “Dr. Gileadi’s work will render obsolete almost all the speculations of Isaiah scholars over the last one hundred years . . . enabling scholarship to proceed along an entirely new line . . . opening new avenues of approach for others to follow”—Professor Roland K. Harrison, Wycliffe College, Toronto, Canada.

    “Only one who is truly at home not only with the Hebrew but with the ancient manner of biblical thought could have produced such an insightful and ground-breaking book”—Professor S. Douglas Waterhouse, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan.

    “Avraham Gileadi’s unsealing of the Book of Isaiah will forever change people’s understanding of Judeo-Christian religion, lifting it to heights hitherto known only to prophets and saints”—Arie Noot, corporate executive, Edmond, Oklahoma.

    “Isaiah Decoded is a huge breakthrough for the seeker of truth—Jew, Christian, Moslem, and agnostic. From an ancient writing, Gileadi has brought to light eternal truths about the nature of God and our relationship to him that have lain buried for centuries in the dust of time”—Guy Wins, fifth-generation Jewish diamond dealer from Antwerp, Belgium.

    “Gileadi is the only scholar I know who has been able to express the Jewish expectation of the Messiah in relation to the life and mission of Jesus of Nazareth”—Daniel Rona, Israeli tour guide, Jerusalem, Israel.

    “Dr. Gileadi has clearly demonstrated his mastery of the Book of Isaiah and of the scholarly literature dealing with it”—Professor Ronald Youngblood, Bethel Theological Seminary, San Diego, California.

    “Avraham Gileadi’s books and tapes take the casual observer of Isaiah’s words and transform him into an enlightened and lifelong student of the Word of God”—Allan and Nancy Pratt, LDS mission president, Toulouse, France.

    “Dr. Gileadi has awakened a whole new depth of my understanding of Isaiah’s prophetic message. His books and tapes illuminate the urgent relevance of Isaiah’s writings to our own day”—Becky Douglas, supervisor and sponsor of three orphanages in India, Atlanta, Georgia.

    “Dr. Gileadi’s translation [of the Book of Isaiah] is clear and smooth, allowing the reader to appreciate the power and beauty of Isaiah as conveyed in the Hebrew original”—Professor Herbert M. Wolf, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois.

    “Gileadi has uncovered an amazing message written in a divine code by the prophet–poet Isaiah. This will give comfort, hope, and joy to masses of people as they cope with the perplexing events now unfolding before their eyes”—Fenton Tobler, thirty years elementary school principle, Las Vegas, Nevada.

    Dec 20, 2008 at 7:56 pm