Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

Strange Elements of the Old Testament

I comment on the Ensign article on Joseph Smith’s journals, the Joseph Smith Papers project and the new Priesthood / Relief Society manual for 2008.I received an email asking a question about God sending lying spirits to the prophets to deceive the king. In addressing this issue, I briefly comment on several approaches to the Old Testament.

1. Rejection of the Old Testament by many early Christians.

2. Modern approach of a majority of Christians who ignore all but a few selected passages and stories from the Old Testament.

3. Another approach is that the Old Testament is a collection of ancient religious writings but not the inspired word of God.

Acknowledging the strangeness of the Old Testament is essential to understanding it.

1 Kings 21

There are a number of passages which present seemingly strange Divine characteristics. I list a few:

1 Kings 22:9-23 (causes prophets to lie);

Ezekiel 14:9 (deceives prophets);

Amos 3:6 (the cause of evil in a city);

Ezekiel 20:25-26, 31 (gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice);

Hosea 9:15-16 (hates and curses);

Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (commands and condones slavery);

1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (sends evil spirits to influence men);

Ex 32:14; Deu 28:68; Am 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9, 10; Jer 26:13; 2 Sam 24:16 (changes his mind).

I read and commented on Numbers 5:11-30 - Procedure for determining a wife’s faithfulness. 

Callers and Email

1. A frequent caller who paints Mormonism in the blackest fashion. He insists that the only interest of the General Authorities is in collecting money from its members. 

2. This caller has written a novel which incorporates much of this author’s personal doctrinal views.

3. A frequent caller strongly criticized my view of the Old Testament.

4. A frequent caller discusses the question of whether God would deceive the prophets and questioning my doubting of the literalness of parts of the Old Testament.

5. A frequent caller condemns me for not believing the flood account literally, but insists that it is appropriate for him to discard to refuse a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation.

6. This caller was applying some wording from the book of Revelation to current events in America’s southern states.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 23 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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God and Omniscience

A number of topics were raised and discussed in this episode:

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God’s Omniscience:

Diversity of Mormon Views

In this episode I discuss several differing views of LDS leaders, including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, B. H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie on the topic of God’s omniscience.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young emphatically declared that the most spiritually advanced in this life will know but little of even the basics of the plan of salvation at the time of their death. From this perspective, they established an LDS position which persists - that we have no carefully worded creed which a person must accept to be LDS. Both of them advocated searching, pondering and speculating upon concepts, even mysteries. This, of course, resulted in a religious climate among the Saints where there would naturally be a diversity of views on even some basic topics, even regarding God and the Godhead.

I discuss the differences between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young on the whether God, or the Gods, progress in knowledge. Their differences resulted in published statements of the First presidency, and the First Presidency and the Twelve, to the Saints and comments in sermons by several General Authorities in the 1860s.   More recently, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, in the 1950s and 1960s expressed their views on the subject.

Email Participants (the phone system went down and thus there were no phone participants)

1. Mormons are so busy chasing after other Gods that they cannot know the one God of the Bible. I comment on this position.
2. A long email from a frequent participant denounces pursuit of our religious belief through research and study. He claims that we must turn to him; that he will tell us the truths we need to know; and that we are to pray to God, not for further knowledge, but rather, only for confirmation what this self-proclaimed prophet has declared. In my response I wandered off on to the question of, Who is Jehovah in Mormon belief in the 19th century in contrast to belief in the 20th century?
3. Another email further argues that Mormons do not believe in the God of the Bible and cannot, therefore, be Christians. The God of the Bible is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. I, of course, respond.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 9 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Development of Mormon Thought

on the Holy Ghost

I trace the development of Mormon thought, from 1829 to the present, on the Holy Ghost. I pursue such questions as:

Is the Holy Ghost a personage?

What is the future of the Holy Ghost?

Was Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost?

Why did the current LDS view of the Holy Ghost take so long to develop?

Regarding the Holy Ghost, I discuss the Book of Mormon and other early sources, specifically Lecture Five in a series of lectures given in 1834, and Joseph Smith’s teachings during the last four years of his life in Nauvoo.

Participants by Phone and Email

1. I read and responded to an email which asserts that the Bible teaches there is one God expressed in three persons. I read several Biblical passages which draw a clear distinction between God and Jesus and others which refer to the existence of a number of gods.
2. A caller addressed himself to this topic and we further discussed the question of the deity of Jesus as related to the New Testament.
3. A caller contributed several views regarding the spirit of man and the workings of the Holy Ghost.
4. Further discussion with a caller regarding the early LDS views (1830s) of the Father as a spirit in contrast to Joseph Smith’s teaching in Nauvoo (1841-1844) that the Father has resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 2 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Development of Joseph Smith’s

Concept of God

Joseph Smith acknowledged that his views were progressive - that is, his views of God differed on a number of points from 1829 to 1844. From a number of sources I have developed the following approximate timeline for the development of Joseph Smith’s views of God.

1. Jesus is God. 1829-1844
2. Jesus pre-existed as the Son. 1829-1844
3. In some way Jesus is the Son and also the Father. 1829-1833
4. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one. 1829-1844
5. The Father is a personage of spirit 1829-1835 or 1834-1835
6. The Holy Ghost is not a personage, but rather the mind of the Father and the Son. 1834-1841
7. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit awaiting the opportunity to take upon himself a body of flesh and bones. 1841-1844
8. The Saints have the potential to become gods and goddesses. 1832-1844
9. Our God and Father has a God and Father. 1841-1844
10. The Father went through mortality and has a resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus. 1841-1844
11. There is an Eternal God of all other Gods. 1838-1841
12. There is one God above another with no end. 1841-1844
13. There was a grand council of Gods to plan and create this world. 1839-1844

I discussed the four main points of the King Follett discourse of 7 April 1844.  

Participation by Phone and Email

1. I respond to an email condemning Brigham Young and his view of Adam as God. Did he believe in a different God than the God of the Bible?
2. Why are there two different trinities in LDS thought: Elohim, Jehovah and the Holy Ghost; and, Elohim, Jehovah and Michael?
3. Comments on Brigham Young’s position that there would be differences on God if saints ancient and modern where gathered together.
4. Does not the Book of Mormon present the idea that God could cease to be God?
5. A caller condemns me for not accepting his views about Brigham Young’s teachings regarding Adam. I explain my preference for Joseph Smith’s view over that of Brigham Young on this point.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 25 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

On this talk show I answer a number of questions regarding Brigham Young’s unique beliefs regarding Adam. This has been a controversial topic for more than 100 years. Answers the following questions are included:

1. What did Brigham Young believe?
2. To what extent did he teach his views?
3. Did he consider his authoritative; that is, official Mormon doctrine?
4. Does his role as president and prophet demand that his views be accepted by LDS?
5. Did his contemporaries in the Church hierarchy accept his views?
6. Did his views on Adam differ from those of Joseph Smith?

Callers and Email

• Joseph Smith’s view that spirits are eternal and Brigham Young’s view that spirits begin to exist through a spirit birth.
• A caller spoke in defense of his view that Adam is God citing some passages and arguments.
• Change of one word in the introduction of the Book of Mormon.    

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 18 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Discussion of God With

Martin Tanner

Discussion with my guest Martin Tanner on the following topics:

Trinity

Book of Mormon doctrine

Early Mormon views of God

Diversity and development of concepts of God within Mormonism.

Questions by Email and Phone

What about monotheism in Isaiah and the trinitarianism or tritheism of the Book of Mormon at the same time?

What about God and gender?

Brigham Young’s view of Adam as God vs Evolution vs accounts of creation in Genesis, Moses, Abraham.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:

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I considered this question from notes I prepared two years ago for a formal debate on the topic with a Calvinist minister. My approach is more as a discussion than a debate due to the fact that four issues must be resolved before we could properly debate the question, “Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?” They are:

1. Which Bible?

2. What is the Biblical concept of Deity?

3. What is the Mormon concept of Deity?

4. Are we referring to the identity of God or to divergent views of God’s attributes and actions?

Callers and Email:

1. The reasoning behind non-LDS Christian arguments that Mormons are not Christians; divergent concepts of salvation.

2. A caller and I disagreed on two main points: That the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers demeans Jesus; and that the belief that Jesus created Satan out of nothing, flawed such that Jesus knew Satan would fall and become the author of evil, makes Jesus the creator, or the one responsible for all evil. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:

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Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity

In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion.

My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity.  Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith.

Callers:

What is monarchianism?

What about Brian Hale’s comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904?

This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:

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