Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

Episodes of Mormon Miscellaneous, a talk show on Mormon history, scripture, doctrine and many controversial topics, by LDS host, Van Hale, now in its 35th year. All points of view are welcomed.
Bits and Pieces
Jun 27th, 2007 by mormonmisc at 12:22 pm

Bits and Pieces

I presented follow-up comments on several recent episodes:

Am I a Darwinist as frequently alleged by a caller, Art Bulla, who claims to be the Lord’s Anointed, the One Mighty and Strong?

A caller on 17 June made absurd allegations about the origin of the text of the Book of Abraham. I asked for his sources. He gave two. I reported on my findings after checking out his claimed sources.

I made a follow-up comment on two recent episodes covering Joseph Smith’s accounts of the First Vision.

I mentioned a very good brief summary article on Mountain Meadows Massacre by noted historian, Rick Turley, to appear in the Church’s September issue of the Ensign. The Church has pre-released this article and has posted it on its website, http://lds.org/. I highly recommend it.

I commented briefly on the alleged Oath of Vengeance. It has been claimed by several recent authors that a primary motive for the Mountain Meadows Massacre was to fulfill an oath taken by Mormons in the temple endowment ceremony to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum through acts of murder. I did not present the material I had prepared for this episode, but have decided to dedicate a program in the next several weeks to this topic.

Callers frequently ask or comment on my views regarding the Book of Mormon historicity issue. I read a brief summary of my view.

Several callers participated. One, Art Bulla, called in making a false allegation about my procedure. As I tried to respond, he refused to allow it by interrupting and over-talking me with a name-calling attack and a challenge to a fist fight. I assume all this display is intended to demonstrate that he is the Lord’s Annointed - the One Mighty and Strong.   Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDSOfficial website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

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This is the 24 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

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  • Art Bulla

    THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS: Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

    Mr. Hale is the one guilty of over-talking and insults. He has a habit of droning on and on, and after a lengthy soliloquy in the mode of “strong censorship” then says “it is time to move on”, thinking that his supercilious disparagement of objective facts have disposed of the matter. How dishonest can one be? As the Lord has said, “Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.” If he treated me in person the way he does behind a microphone I would probably give him a boxing lesson, it is true.

    The man has absolutely no revelation from God but depends on the learning of men who disagree among themselves concerning the truth, taking absolute delight in “darkness rather than light”. The Lord says this is in fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the OMS, who would be turned aside as a thing of naught because they wear “high heads” and “stiff necks” and depend on the “precepts of men”.

    11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. 12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. 13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up. 14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. 15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! 16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish. 17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts. 18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. 19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish; 20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good. 21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well–and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. 22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none–and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. 23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. 24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! 25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! 26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost! 27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more! 28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall. 29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough! 30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

    (2 Ne 28:11-30)

    Nov 10, 2007 at 8:44 pm
  • Art Bulla

    The doctrine you teach that Joseph Smith believed that spirits are eternal, despite his having been quoted accurately saying “spirit are eternal” is false for the following reason: the words intelligence and spirits were used interchangeably at first by Joseph, but then in the last discourse on this subject corrected this:

    BH Roberts made these observations, which I know by the spirit of God to be true:

    B. H. Roberts, Seventy’s Course in Theology, 4:, p.11 Words used Interchangeably: Here it is necessary to repeat with some additions, what was said in Year Book II, on the use of words interchangeably: It is often the case that misconceptions arise through a careless use of words, and through using words interchangeably, without regard to shades of differences that attach to them; and this in the scriptures as in other writings. Indeed, this fault is more frequent in the scriptures perhaps than in any other writings for the reason that, for the most part, they are composed by men who did not aim at scientific exactness in the use of words. They were not in most cases equal to such precision in the use of language, in the first place; and in the second, they depended more upon the general tenor of what they wrote for making truth apparent than upon technical precision in a choice of words; ideas, not niceness of expression, was the burden of their souls; thought, not its dress. Hence, in scripture, and I might say especially in modern scripture, a lack of careful or precise choice of words, a large dependence upon the general tenor of what is written to convey the truth, a wide range in using words interchangeably that are not always exact equivalents, are characteristics. Thus the expression, “Kingdom of God,” “Kingdom of Heaven,” “the Whole Family in Heaven,” “the Church of Christ,” “the Church of God,” are often used interchangeably for the Church of Christ when they are not always equivalents; so, too, are used the terms “Spirit of God,” and “Holy Ghost;” “Spirit of Christ,” and “the Holy Ghost;” “Spirit,” and “Soul;” “intelligences,” and “spirits,” and “angels.” I mention this in passing, because I believe many of the differences of opinion and much of the confusion of ideas that exist arise out of our not recognizing, or our not remembering these facts. Hereafter let the student be on his guard in relation to the use of the words “intelligences,” “spirits,” “soul,” “mind,” etc.; and he will find his way out of many a difficulty. Let the closing part of the quotation from the Prophet’s discourse above be considered in the light of the suggestions made here respecting the use of words interchangeably. It is observed that he uses the words “Intelligence” and “spirit” interchangeably-one for the other; and yet we can discern that it is the “intelligence of spirits,” not “spirits” entire (see next subdivision) that is the subject of his thought. It is the “Intelligence of Spirits” that he declares uncreated and uncreatable-eternal as God is. The same interchangeable use of the terms is to be observed in the Book of Abraham (Ch. iii:16-28) and in other scriptures.

    Also Elder Roberts wrote: 2. Jesus as the First Born: Sure it is that God, the Father, is the Father of the spirits of men. “We,” says Paul, “have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?” According to this, then, there is a “Father of Spirits.” It follows, of course, that “spirits” have a father-they are begotten. It should be remarked that the term, “spirits” in the above passage cannot refer to self-existent, unbegotten intelligences of the revelations, considered in the foregoing note; and certainly this relationship of fatherhood to spirits is not one brought about in connection with generation of human life in this world. Paul makes a very sharp distinction between “Fathers of our flesh” and the “Father of spirits,” in the above. Fatherhood to spirits is manifestly a relationship established independent of man’s earth-existence; and, of course, in an existence which preceded earth-life, where the uncreated intelligences are begotten spirits. Hence, the phrase “shall we not be subject to the Father of spirits and live?”

    (B. H. Roberts, Seventy’s Course in Theology, 2:, p.14)

    It grieves the spirit that you persist in your infamy by instigating confusioon on this subject, which is calculated to throw doubt upon the Adamhood of God (for how could he be the father of spirits, if they are eternal.

    John Widtsoe made this observation as well: 5. Offenses Against the Church

    There are really only three kinds of offenses of which the Church takes cognizance. First…Third, the incorrect interpretation of doctrine, coupled with an unwillingness to accept the correct view after proper explanations of the doctrine have been made. The first two types of violation are of conduct, the third of belief. All imply non-conformity to the practices of the Church or non-acceptance of its teachings.-PC 164.

    (John A. Widtsoe, Priesthood and Church Government, p.209)

    Nov 27, 2008 at 8:35 pm