Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

Episodes of Mormon Miscellaneous, a talk show on Mormon history, scripture, doctrine and many controversial topics, by LDS host, Van Hale, now in its 35th year. All points of view are welcomed.
Anti-Mormon Vs Mormon
Apr 17th, 2007 by mormonmisc at 10:38 am

Anti-Mormon verses Mormon

My guest was Shawn McCraney. He is an ex-Mormon who hosts a weekly anti-Mormon TV show which airs in Salt Lake City, Utah and Boise, Idaho. The fact that Shawn is an aggressive anti-Mormon, and I, Van Hale, am a believing, participating Mormon, resulted in a lively and confrontational dialogue. Interest was high and many attempted to participate by phone and email - more than I was able to include in the two hour discussion. Those who enjoy this type of religious wrangling will not want to miss this.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I fear that I may not be able to provide an appropriate summary, so I have decided not to attempt to it.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

This is the 15 April 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 27th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to www.k-talk.com Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

 

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  • Bob Aarness

    Bottom line on the Mormon issue is that, officially speaking, the LDS Church is a polytheistic religion while most, if not all, mainstream Western religions are decidedly monotheistic religions. This overiding difference will forever keep the Mormon Church a seperate entity when it comes to Bible believing religions.

    May 2, 2007 at 5:35 pm
  • mormonmisc

    Van replies:

    First, I am not aware that Bob Aarness is authorized to speak officially for the LDS Church, and “polytheistic” has never been used by LDS authorities to define the LDS view of God.

    Further, most mainstream Western religions are trinitarian; that is, they are not monotheistic. “Trinitarian” comes from the Latin “trinitas” which means three and cannot be used in any way to define true monotheism. To say that the one God is three persons is not monotheism. To say that there is one lone being, essence, power or person who stands alone as God is monotheism. This is the view of modern Judaism, which declares trinitarianism as a heresy because it is not monotheism. Jews, religiously, are monotheists; Christian trinitarians are not.

    And finally, widespread commentary by non-LDS scholars explains that the view of God in ancient Israel, and found in many Biblical passages, is not monotheistic. Rather, the God of Israel, as found in Psalms 82 and a number of other passages, stands at the Head of a “heavenly council of gods.” He is the “God of gods,” the “most high God,” the “head of the gods,” which is not monotheism. And nowhere in the Bible is there any statement that there is one God manifest in three persons. So, monotheism, mainstream Western religion and trinitarianism all diverge from views of God found in the Bible.

    May 3, 2007 at 10:13 am
  • Van Helsing

    Christianity is easily monotheistic. It is one God manifesting Himself in three personas (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I’ve never understood why it is that some people have such a hard time understanding that God is an omnipotent, eternal being who is not limited to any form of manifestation. He has chosen the above three. He is ONE God!

    God bless!

    Jul 9, 2007 at 9:56 am
  • Mike

    Good debate. Shawn made up for his ignorance with aggression. Whenever you point out to an anti-Mormon their blatant double standard they will always run back to the, “LOOK, YOUR ATTACKING THE BIBLE!!” deflection.

    Jul 9, 2007 at 1:05 pm
  • bob aarness

    Typically Mormon,Van refuses to be even slightly honest about this situation. He won’t even acknowlodge that the single most widely difference between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism is the absolute clear fact that mainstream Christianity believes in ONE God Almighty and their church teaches that God Almighty is only one of billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of God Almighties existing in the universe. And that’s the BOTTOM LINE. Not ONCE did or does he even concede this fact. SHAME ON YOU, VAN, try to be honest at least one time in your life, will ya?!!!!!

    Feb 4, 2008 at 3:53 pm
  • mormonmisc

    Bob Aarness is speaking without knowledge. I have discussed LDS views on the plurality of Gods many times. I have written several articles, which have been published, addressing the fine points of this concept, its origin and development within Mormon thought. I have compared and contrasted LDS views with the widely divergent views of God found in the many controversies of early and modern segments of non-LDS Christianity.

    Further, I have discussed many times the development of the concept of God within the Bible drawing from the work of many Protestant and Catholic scholars who acknowledge and comment extensively upon the concept of a plurality of gods found in a number of Biblical passages.

    Van Hale

    Feb 7, 2008 at 11:00 am
  • beeess

    Shawn McCraney is a typical Charismatic-Pentecostal Televangelist. McCraney embraces the Calvary Chapel / Chuck Smith philosophy of ministry (was educated at their Bible College). Google this phrase: “Day of Reckoning+Chuck Smith”, find the article in Christianity Today about this whole corrupt movement.

    Where does McCraney / BornAgainMormon stand ?

    He believes (according to one of his own church members) that Born-Again Christians can lose their salvation. This doctrine is not taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. Certainly not a very healthy doctrine to embrace while ministering to LDS ! ! !

    Shawn also embraces (he taught this on his Lord’s Word broadcast) the “It’s-OK-to-Speak-in-Tongues-as-Private-Prayer” nonsense. Tongues were revelatory (Revelatory = Direct & Immediate info from God). Tongues have ceased… The Charismatics are in the same boat as Mormons…they both believe in contemporary revelation ! ! ! Again…not a very healthy doctrine to teach while trying to win Mormons.

    McCraney teaches in his book and on TV that LDS who become genuine Born-Again believers can and/or should REMAIN in the LDS religion…hence the term, “Born Again Mormon”. Noticeably contrary to II Corinthians 6.

    Numerous followers of his are from existing local churches in Salt Lake City, not LDS whom Shawn has personally won to Christ. In other words, McCraney’s “church” is made up of disgruntled church hoppers, who move around from one congregation to another in and around SLC.

    Jun 3, 2008 at 11:44 am
  • bob aarness

    Once again Van refuses to concede that according to “Gospel Principals”, the official Salt lake City, mainstream L.D.S.Church published manual, 1992 version states that, “It is the first principal of the gospel to know for a certainty that …as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become.” - Van Hale, Can you say,”Extrapolate”??? Gee, Van, I guess that says it all, doesn’t it?! AND, to top it all off, when Gordon Hinkley was asked about this very subject he replied, “I don’t know that we teach that.” !!!!!!! HELLO? Knock knock, anyone home?! Can you read,”FIRST PRINCIPAL”?!! What part of “FIRST PRINCIPAL” didn’t Gordon understand?!!

    Oct 23, 2008 at 9:17 am
  • Shazoolo

    After listening to this exchange between Van Hale and Shawn McCraney I find myself disgusted.

    I see Shawn as angry, vindictive, obstinate, deceptive, and unable to answer specific questions about his beliefs and knowledge of the Bible. I feel sorry for those who are lead away by his destructive influence and sincerely pray that those who have been lead away eventually come to learn that God is love.

    Mar 22, 2009 at 12:07 am
  • OldSoul

    Anyone else in awe of the stupidity of this exchange? Van’s defense and offense in the debate boils down to “Well your version of Christianity is just as untenable as Mormonism and you believe it, so what’s wrong with our beliefs?” In the end Mormonism is a sad silly lie, why is the fact Biblical Christianity can look as silly sometimes a good thing for Mormonism? The end result is believers on both sides of the argument come away from that debate feeling like they won, and non-believers realize why they gave up religion to begin with. Not productive.

    Mar 23, 2009 at 7:50 pm
  • nathan wach

    There is too many different christian churchs out there that have the same basic truth and it all comes from one source the bible. why is this it just doesnt add up with me its choas. If one religion can spilt into so many different opinions or (churchs) its telling me that its totally man made all the way.

    May 19, 2009 at 9:32 pm
  • Flipper

    Shawn is really ignorant.

    May 23, 2009 at 7:44 pm
  • Anonymous

    I’m not a religious person and consider myself agnostic. But I have to say van hale’s arguements are very solid. The bible has many ridiculous claims as he pointed out

    Jan 22, 2010 at 6:04 am
  • K00lKid

    I love Shawn’s ministry, but he really did need to show some class here. Dissapointment =/. I do think Van did a good job at completely showing the double standard that takes place with Shawn’s unwillingness to accept science contradicting the Bible, but at the same time, it would have been better if Van was an atheist or something. Doesn’t really help LDS have any faith in the Bible.

    May 19, 2010 at 11:47 am
  • Jonathan CHM

    How could a non-Christian be born again?

    Should a person use only one verse to conclude messages that God intends for us? Let’s meditate Matthew 5:9 as follows: Matthew 5:9, “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. As the word, peacemakers, is mentioned in Matthew 5:9 with the phrase, the children of God, a false message could come about that as long as a person, whether he is a believer or not, declares peace in this world, he or she could be considered as a child of God or a Christian. Thus, using a verse to conclude God’s message is erroneous.

    Examples to prove that not all the people, that proclaim to believe in Jesus, will automatically be granted with the Holy Spirit: 1) Acts 19:1-2, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.” The phrase, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed, in Acts 19:1-2 implies that not all the people, that believe in Jesus, would automatically be granted with the Holy Spirit or else it would not justifiable for Acts 19:1-2 to enquire whether these people had received the Holy Spirit at the time of their believes with the assumption that the Holy Spirit would automatically be granted at the time when they began to believe. 2) Acts 8:14-17, “…Samaria HAD RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD,….when they were come down, PRAYED FOR THEM, THAT THEY MIGHT RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.). Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” As the phrase, received the word of God, is mentioned in Acts 8:14-17 with the phrase, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, it implies that believing in Jesus does not imply a person would receive the Holy Spirit automatically unless requesting it. 3) Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The phrase, every one that saith unto me Lord Lord, in Matthew 7:21 refers undoubtedly to those people that believe in Jesus since they call Jesus to be their Lord. Would these believers be accepted by the Lord? No, they will not be accepted by the Lord since Matthew 7:23, “(mentions that) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” As these people, that call Jesus as Lord, could be rejected by Him in the last days, it implies that not all, that believe in Jesus to be their Lord, are Christians. Is it irrational to use Matthew 7:21-23 to jump into conclusion that Christians would lose salvation since 1 Corinth 3:12 opposes it? The following is the extract: 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. IF ANY MAN’S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.” As proved above that Matthew 7:21 should not be applicable to backsliders since Christians would never lose their salvation, the only possible reason to think of and that is those people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:21 that proclaim Jesus to be Lord are not Christians at all. The same is supported in Luke 13:24-25 that many believe in Jesus and yet not many are saved. The following is the extract: Luke 13:24-25, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK TO ENTER IN, AND SHALL NOT BE ABLE. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT WHENCE YE ARE:” The same is mentioned in Matthew 22:14, “(that) For many are called, but few [are] chosen.” Some Christians might use the two criminals that hung on the cross as an excuse for not requesting the receipt of the Holy Spirit. They have to bear in mind that Jesus had not resurrected yet at that time and the criminals did confess that they were sinners too. Besides, one of the criminals did not reject when Jesus called him to follow Him to be with Him in the paradise. Do you find this to be his acceptance of Jesus for his confession when he agreed to be with the Lord to be in the paradise without opposing Him?

    Should a Christian declare that faith alone could save a person without accompanying with any action? James 2:21-24, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY.” The same is mentioned in James 2:18-19, “(that) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

    Should a non-Christian repent for their sins or should he or she declare to believe in Jesus and yet worship Buddha simultaneously? John the Baptist went before Jesus to declare repentance and this shows that repentance is significant for Christianity’s conversion. James 1:21, “(even mentions that) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” As the phrase, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, is mentioned in James 1:21 prior to the phrase, receive…the engrafted word, it implies the significance of repentance prior to receiving Jesus as his or her Personal Saviour.

    Why should a non-Christian confess sin? 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” As the phrase, we say that we have no sin, is mentioned in 1 John 1:8 with the phrase, the truth is not in us, it implies that non-Christians would not have God’s truth with them if they declare that they are not sinners. As God’s truth is not with non-Christians if they do not confess that they are sinners before God, there is a query whether God would dwell within their bodies at the absence of biblical truth in them. Thus, it is a must for non-Christians to declare before God to be sinners to seek His forgiveness. The absolute promise of God for those who confess their sins before Him and that is: 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    Repentance and confession are significant to non-Christians for their receipts of the Holy Spirit since John 9:31, “(mentions that)…God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” The phrase, God heareth not sinners, in John 9:31 implies God’s rejection of those non-Christians that insist not to repent and continuing in worshipping Buddha and the insisting that they are not sinners before God. These people would have their prayers to be in vain even if they declare to believe Jesus Christ and Buddha at the same time. The phrase, God heareth not sinners, in John 9:31 implies purity is significant for non-Christians’ conversions and prior to the receipt of the Holy Spirit and that is why it demands non-Christians to repent and to confess their sins before God to have their sins to be cleansed for purity. Thus, it is significant for all the people that declare to believe in Jesus Christ to have their sins to confess before God especially Psalms 5:4, “(mentions that) For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Psalms 5:4 seems to highlight to us that God would not dwell among non-Christians if sins are with them. For this reason, it is advisable for all the people that declare to believe in Jesus Christ to confess their sins before God so as to have their sins to be cleansed with purity for God’s dwelling.

    Did the Gospel highlight to us to request for the Holy Spirit? The following are the extracted verses to prove that Jesus and even His disciples did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit: 1) John 4:10, “Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water.” The phrase, have asked of him, in John 4:10 has stressed the significance of the request for the Holy Spirit. 2) John 6:32-34, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. THEN SAID THEY UNTO HIM, LORD EVERMORE GIVE US THIS BREAD.” The phrase, Then said they unto him Lord evermore give us this bread, in John 6:34 is another proof that Jesus’ disciples did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. However, their requests could only be fulfilled until after Jesus’ resurrection in the Calvary. 3) Luke 11:13, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” From the above extracts, these give an absolute certainty that a person could receive the Holy Spirit through requesting for the receipt of it. Bear in mind that Romans 8:9, “(mentions that)…if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” As the phrase, any man have not the Spirit of Christ, is mentioned in Romans 8:9 with the phrase, he is none of his, it implies that those people, that do not have the Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ with them, are not considered to be Christians at all. Assurance from God that we will receive the Holy Spirit when we ask from Him: Luke 11:10, “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” The same is supported in Mark 11:24, “(that) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].”

    Romans 10:9, “(mentions) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” This verse implies that our faith should be grounded upon the resurrection of Jesus. Muslims too believe in Jesus, but they reject the resurrection of Jesus. However, Romans 10:9 demands not only to confess Jesus but also to believe He has been resurrected.

    Sinner’s prayer has met the requisition of the confession since it demands non-Christians to confess themselves before God of their believes in the name of Lord Jesus Christ. It demands also the non-Christians to acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus and that meets the requirement of Romans 10:9. Not only that, it requires non-Christians to confess their sins before God for purification and also to express their needs for Jesus Christ to be their Personal Saviour. One should bear in mind that God will deny those people that believe in Jesus and yet refuse to proclaim the name of Jesus. The following are the extracts: 1) Luke 9:26, “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.” 2) Luke 12:8-9, “Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.” 3) Matthew 10:32, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”

    There should not be any worry if a person does not have confidence whether he has received the Holy Spirit before, he should not hesitate but to ask for the receipt of the Holy Spirit since spiritual baptism only takes effect once. Once a person has received the Holy Spirit, he would not receive any more in the future since Ephesians 4:5, “(mentions that) One Lord, one faith, one baptism”. The phrase, one baptism, in Ephesians 4:5 implies one spiritual baptism instead of more than once.

    Now, let’s meditate Matthew 5:9 again: Matthew 5:9, “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. As we know once a person receives Jesus Christ to be His Personal Saviour, his spiritual fruits will grow and these include peace in God and that is why Jesus mentions Matthew 5:9 to be appropriate since Christians would have their spiritual fruits to grow and these include peace, one of the spiritual fruits (John 15:5).

    Jul 2, 2010 at 11:17 pm
  • GREG

    Van Hale is a bumbling idiot and is doing his damndest to avoid the Christ argument. Please Van, enlighten us with more science. What a moron.

    Jul 3, 2010 at 7:23 pm
  • Jonathan CHM

    DOES THE BOOK OF ACTS SUPPORT THAT BELIEVING IN JESUS ATTRACTS IMMEDIATE RECEIPT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

    1} Let’s meditate Acts 22:12-16 below:

    Acts 22:12-16, “And one Ananias…came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive they sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and washed away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

    From the above verses, it is easily to spot out that nothing is mentioned whether Saul had repented from sinning in persecuting Christians or he had confessed his sin or he had believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him except the phrase, be baptized and washed away thy sins. Despite nothing is mentioned that is pertaining to the above factors that contributed to his salvation, it is irrational to conclude that he needed not to exercise any of these elements prior to his salvation. Similarly, it is irrational to conclude that he did not request for the Holy Spirit just simply giving the explanation that the above verses do not mention it. As the phrase, washed away thy sins, is mentioned in Acts 22:10 with the phrase, be baptized, it implies that baptism in the past was accompanied with sin cleansing.

    2} Let’s meditate Acts 8:14-17 below:

    Acts 8:14-17, “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, PRAYED FOR THEM,, THAT THEY MIGHT RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”

    Nothing is mentioned in Acts 8:14-17 that the Samaria had believed the word of God except the phrase, had received. It is erroneous to use these verses to support that salvation could come about simply by receiving the word of God instead of believing. Thus, the absence of certain factors, such as, repentance of sin; confession of sin; and the requesting for the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:14-17, do not give any strong proof that they did not exercise prior to their conversion to Christianity. The phrase, had received, in Acts 8:14 implies that Samaria should have believed in Jesus at that time. Did they receive the Holy Spirit immediately after believing? No, they did not receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:14 until Acts 8:17, “(that mentions that)…laid they their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.” As there is an obvious gap between Acts 8:14 and Acts 8:17 in which they believed and yet the Holy Spirit was not with them, it implies that believing does not attract the immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. As the phrase, prayed for them, is mentioned in Acts 8:15 with the phrase, that they might receive the Holy Spirit, it implies that requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit is acceptable from the Scriptural point of view. As praying with the receipt of the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:15 should be associated with baptism, it implies baptism in the past should be accompanied with also praying with the receipt of the Holy Spirit in addition to sin cleansing as mentioned in Acts 22:10.

    3} The apostles were told to Acts 1:4-5, “…be…assembled together…(and) should not depart from Jerusalem…(so as to) be baptized with Holy Ghost…” Did these apostles ask for the receipt of the Holy Ghost? In order to tackle this question, let’s meditate John 6:32-34 as below: John 6:32-34, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. THEN SAID THEY UNTO HIM, LORD EVERMORE GIVE US THIS BREAD.” The phrase, the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, in John 6:33 certainly refers to the Holy Spirit. The phrase, Then said they unto him Lord evermore give us this bread, in John 6:34 implies that the apostles did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit and yet Jesus turned them down by saying, John 7:39, “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” The same is mentioned in John 16:7 that the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at the absence of Jesus. The following is the extract: John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” The same is in Philemon 1:15, “(that) For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever.” Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit did not come to the Apostles even though they did ask Jesus in John 6:32-34 until the day of Pentecost.

    4} Let’s examine Acts 8:26-37 below to determine whether these verses do support sinner’s prayer:

    Acts 8:26-27, “And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise…And he arose, and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians…had come to Jerusalem for to worship…” Acts 8:37-38, “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and he eunuch; and he baptized him.”

    Observe carefully the above verses and you would have discovered that none of the verses between Acts 8:26 and Acts 8:38 mention that the words, believe, and the phrase, the Holy Spirit came to the eunuch except the phrase, he baptized him. The absence of the word, believe, and the phrase, the Holy Spirit comes to eunuch, does not imply that he had not believed in Jesus and that the Holy Spirit did not come to him, The same that it is irrational to use Acts 8:26-38 to jump into conclusion that repentance and confession of sin and the requesting for the Holy Spirit are not necessary just because they are not stated among these verses. The phrase, had come to Jerusalem for to worship, in Acts 8:27, gives us the possible idea that he should have believed in Acts 8:27 or else there should not be any reason for him to travel for worship. The phrase, he baptized him, in Acts 8:38 gives us the idea that he should have received the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:38. Despite he had believed in Jesus when he was in Acts 8:27, he only proclaimed his belief that was followed by baptism in Acts 8:38. There is an obvious gap between Acts 8:27 and Acts 8:37 in which he believed and yet the Holy Spirit had not come to him and this could come to the conclusion that believing does not attract immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit.

    As mentioned in Acts 22 above that sin cleansing has to be associated with baptism and that Acts 8:15 that praying for the Holy Spirit has to be associated with baptism. As the word, baptized, is mentioned in Acts 8:38 and that baptism is to be associated with sin cleansing and praying for the Holy Spirit, sin cleansing and praying for the Holy Spirit should have been exercised at the time of baptism even though they are not stated in these verses at all.

    5} Let’s mediate the extracted verses from Acts 10 below:

    Acts 10:1-2, “There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band…one that feared God…” Acts 10:30-32, “And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, A MAN STOOD BEFORE ME IN BRIGHT CLOTHING and said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard…Send therefore to…Peter…” Acts 10:25-26, “And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up I myself also am a man.” Acts 10:43-44, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sin. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

    Nothing is mentioned in Acts 10:1-26 that Cornelius had believed in Jesus except that Peter prevented him to fall down and worship him as mentioned in Acts 10:25-26. It is only mentioned in Acts 10:43-44 that the Holy Spirit came down upon him when he heard Peter that declared that whosoever believe in Jesus shall receive remission of sin. It is erroneous to use Acts 10:43-44 to jump into the conclusion that a non-Christian could be saved simply by hearing the words of God instead of through faith just because Acts 10:43-44 are not indicated that Cornelius believes except that he heard the words. The same is for repentance and confession of sin and the praying for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. The absence of all these words in Acts 10:1-44, does not imply that Cornelius did not do it.

    6} Let’s meditate Acts 16:29-33 below:

    Acts 16:29-33, “Then called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sir, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway.”

    The phrase, And they said Believe on the Lord, in Acts 16:31 refers undoubtedly to the preaching words from Paul and Silas to the keeper of the prison. However, nothing is mentioned in the subsequent verse that he believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him except the phrase, was baptized. As nothing is mentioned that he believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him, it does not imply that he had not been born again. The same that nothing is mentioned that he had repented and confessed his sins and even to request for the Holy Spirit, it is irrational to conclude that he did not do it.

    7} Acts 19:2, “…HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED?…”

    Nevertheless, it could come the conclusion that it is erroneous to extract any event from the book of Acts to comment that certain practices, such as, believing in Jesus; repentance and confession of sin; and praying for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, are not mentioned in that event, and immediately derive a conclusion that those practices are not necessary to be exercised in order to be born again.

    It has been proved in Clauses 2 and 4 above that believing in Jesus does not necessarily attract immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit.

    SALVATION IS THE WORK OF FAITH

    In order to be saved, a person that believes in Jesus Christ has to be born again through receiving the Holy Spirit. It is irrational to support that a non-Christian that believes in Jesus will automatically be granted with the Holy Spirit since Acts 19:2, “…(enquire those people that believe in Jesus,) HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED?…” Furthermore, Romans 8:9 mentions that those that do not have the Spirit of Christ are not Christians at all. The following is the extract: Romans 8:9, “…if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

    Salvation is truly the work of faith. When a non-Christian prays a sinner’s prayer, he has to exercise his faith throughout his praying. When he prays to confess his sin before God through sinner’s prayer, he has to believe that God has forgiven his sin immediately after his confession or else he would not expect to receive any forgiveness of sin from God. This is due to James 1:6-8, “(mentions that) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” As the word, wavereth, is mentioned in James 1:6-8 with the phrase, let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord, it implies that a non-Christian, that does not believe that his sin has been forgiven immediately after sinner’s prayer, would not have his sin be forgiven. As his sin would not be forgiven if he does not believe that he has been forgiven immediately after sinner’s prayer, his sin would not be forgiven and that would not cause the Holy Spirit to enter into his body since John 9:31, “(mentions that)…God heareth not sinners…” The same is in praying for the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the same person must believe that he has already received the Holy Spirit after sinner’s prayer. Or else, his prayer is in vain and would not cause him to receive the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, faith has to be exercised throughout sinner’s prayer in order to cause a non-Christian to be born again.

    Could a non-Christian mention that he believes in Jesus Christ and yet he does not believe that his sin has been forgiven and he also does not believe that the Holy Spirit has come into his body immediately after sinner’s prayer? Certainly, there is a question whether this non-Christian has believed in Jesus since he questions about whether his sin has been forgiven and the existence of the Holy Spirit in his body immediately after his sinner’s prayer.

    Salvation does not depend upon emotion but faith. A non-Christian must believe that his sin has been forgiven and that he has received the Holy Spirit without relying upon feeling. With his faith immediately after sinner’s prayer, he would then be born again.

    RELIANCE UPON EMOTION TOWARDS TO EXISTENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    Reliance upon emotion towards the existence of the Holy Spirit within our bodies to determine whether we are born again is not scriptural due to Job 9:2 and John 3:5-8 provides the truth we could not sense the existence of the Holy Spirit. The following are the explanations:

    i} Job 9:2, “…God” Job 9:11, “Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.” As the phrase, he goeth…and…passeth on, is mentioned in Job 9:11 with the phrase, I perceive him not, it implies that we could never sense the existence of God.

    ii) John 3:5-8, “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. THE WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH, and THOU HEARST THE SOUND THEREOF, BUT CANST NOT TELL WHENCE IT COMETH, and WHITHER IT GOETH: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

    Let’s analyse John 3:5-8 in two different approaches as follows:

    a} Let’s relates the word, wind, in John 3:5-8 to be the Holy Spirit and the phrase, the wind bloweth where it listeth, in John 3:8 would turn up to be the Holy Spirit goes as He wishes. The phrase, thou hearst the sound thereof, in John 3:8 can be interpreted as you hear the Holy Spirit speaks to you whenever He guides you in truth or whenever He informs you that you have committed sin or etc. The phrase, thou…canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth, in John 3:8 implies that we cannot tell when the Holy Spirit has come and where He has gone to. We could sense His existence only if we could know when He comes and where He goes within our bodies. As it is mentioned that we could not tell where the Holy Spirit comes and goes, it implies that we could not sense the existence of the Holy Spirit.

    b} Let’s interpret the word, wind in John 3:5-8 in a straightforward way that has no connection with the Holy Spirit. The phrase, The wind bloweth where it listeth, in John 3:8 implies that the wind blows as it wishes. The phrase, thou hearst the sound thereof, in John 3:8 could be interpreted as we are aware of the wind by the external environment, such as, the sound of the wind; the coolness of our bodies; the movement of the external objects, i.e. tree & etc. The phrase, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth, in John 3:8 implies that we can never have any unusual sensation about the movement of wind within our bodies that drives us crazily. The reason is simply that wind can never penetrate into our bodies & to move within our bodies. The phrase, so is every one that is born of the Spirit, in John 3:8 implies that it happens the same to the Holy Spirit.

    As proved above that we could not sense God, our prayer through requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit, must rely merely on faith instead of depending upon whether there is any emotion within our bodies to determine the existence of the Holy Spirit within our bodies.

    JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND HE IS ALSO GOD

    There are many instances to prove that Jesus is God Himself:

    1} Human beings and angels worship Jesus Christ. The following are the extracts: Hebrews 1:6, “…firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”; Matthew 2:1-2, “…there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for WE have seen his star in the east, and are COME TO WORSHIP HIM.”; Matthew 2:11, “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him…”: Matthew 8:2, “And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt,…”; Matthew 9:18, “…there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him..”; Matthew 15:25, “Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”; Matthew 20:20, “Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him…”; Matthew 28:9, “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.”

    For instance, if Jesus Christ is not God, worshipping Jesus contradicts the Ten Commandments as mentioned in Exodus 20 and even Luke 4:8, “….Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

    2} Jesus did miracles, but the surrounding audience glorified God and this implies that Jesus Christ is God Himself. The following are the extracts: Luke 5:24-25, “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. “; Luke 13:12-13, “And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.”; Luke 13:17, “…and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.”; Luke 17:15, “And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God.”; Luke 18:42-43, “And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God…”

    3} Jesus is God and is even obvious in John 1. The following are the extracts: John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” John 1:10-11, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    4} Jesus even admitted Himself to be God. John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:27, “They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.”

    5} God even called Jesus Himself to be God. The following is the extract: Hebrews 1:8, “But unto the Son he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”; Isaiah 9:6-7, “For unto us a child is born, UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counseller, THE ALMIGHTY GOD…”

    6} Jesus Christ is our Saviour and yet Titus 1:3, “(mentions)…God our Saviour;”, it implies that Jesus Himself is God since this verse links up God to be our Saviour even though Jesus Christ was the one that died for our sins.

    7} Jesus Christ has neither beginning nor ending and the same is for God. The following are the extracts: Hebrews 7:3, “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”; John 8:56-58, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”; John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…”; Proverb 8:22-24, “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.”

    8} Jesus Christ is our Lord and yet the name of the Lord is God and this indirectly refers Jesus Christ as God.

    The following are the extracts that refer Jesus as the Lord: 2 Peter 2:20, “Lord and Jesus Christ…”; 2 Peter 3:18, “.Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”;; Hebrews 1:8, “But to the Son he says…”Hebrews 1:10, “And, ‘You, Lord…”; Philemon 1:3, “…the Lord Jesus Christ.”; Titus 1:3, “…the Lord Jesus Christ.”; Titus 1:4, “…the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.” Matthew 8:5, “…Jesus..a centurion beseeching him, and saying, Lord…”; Matthew 8:25, “And his disciples came to him…saying, Lord…”; Mark 16:19, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat as the right hand of God.”; Luke 2:11, “…Christ the Lord.”; Luke 6:5, “And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.”; Luke 13:15, “The Lord then answered him…”

    The following are the extracts that the Lord is God: Isaiah 30:18, “…for the Lord is a God of judgment…”; Isaiah 33:22, “…the LORD s our King; he will save us.”; Isaiah 45:3, “…I, the Lord…am the God of Israel.”; Jeremiah 32:27, “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all fresh…”; Habakuk 3:18, “…the LORD…the God of my salvation”; Deuteronomy 4:35, “…the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”; Psalm 33:12, “…God is LORD…”; Psalm 118:27, “God is the LORD…”; Psalm 144:15, “…whose God is the LORD.”; Psalm 18:31, “For who is God save the LORD? Or who is roc save our God?”

    9} Jesus created the Universe and God was the one that created the Universe as mentioned in the Book of Genesis and all these point to the fact that Jesus is God Himself:

    The following are the extracts that Jesus was the creator of this Universe: Hebrews 1:1-2, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” Hebrews 1:8, “But to he Son he says…” Hebrews 1:10, “And: ‘You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”; John 1:7-11, “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

    10} Jesus Christ was with the Holy Spirit since birth instead of at the time of His baptism with John the Baptist. Matthew 1:20, “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”; Luke 1:34-35, “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES FROM GOD

    1 John 4:12, “No one has seen God at any time…God abides in us.” 1 John 4:13, “By this we know that we abide in him and he is in us, because HE HAS GIVE US OF HIS SPIRIT.”; Numbers 24:2, “…the Spirit of God came upon him.”; Ezekiel 37:1, Isaiah 4:13-14, “…the Spirit of the LORD…”; Proverbs 1:23, “…I will pour out my spirit unto you…”; Nehemiah 9:20, “You also gave Your good spirit to instruct them…”; Isaiah 44:3, “…I will pour my spirit upon thee…”; Isaiah 59:21, “…saith the LORD, my spirit that is upon thee…”; Matthew 3:16, “…the spirit of God…”; John 15:26, “But when the COMFORTER is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER…”; 1 Peter 1:11, Romans 8:9, “…Spirit of Christ…”

    THE APPEARANCE OF JESUS CHRIST

    The first coming and His next coming will be in physical form absolutely since 1 John 4:2, “(mentions that)…Every spirit that confesseth that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH is of God:”

    Even though the coming of Jesus Christ will be in physical form, he could appear in spiritual form too. The following are the explanations: The phrase, Spirit of Christ, in Romans 8:9 and 1 Peter 1:11 gives us absolute proves that Jesus Christ could be in spiritual form. Another proof that Jesus could be in spiritual as well as physical form could be located in Luke 24:33-37 in which Jesus appeared suddenly in midst of the disciples and caused them to have the fear that He was ghost. Jesus Christ should have been with them in the spiritual form prior to His sudden appearance in the midst of them to cause them to have the fear. The following are the extracts: Luke 24:33, “And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,” Luke 24:36-37, “And AS THEY THUS SPAKE, JESUS HIMSELF STOOD IN THE MIDST OFTHEM, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. BUT THEY WERE TERRIFIED AND AFFRIGHTED, AND SUPPOSED THAT THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT.”

    UNIT OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT

    Does a person invite the Holy Spirit as well as God into his body by praying merely to receive Jesus Christ as his Personal Saviour? John 14:10-12 spelt out the unity between God and Jesus. The following is the extract: John 14:10-12, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,…Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me…” As the phrase, I am in the Father, and the Father in me, is mentioned in John 14:10-12, it implies togetherness between Jesus Christ and God and that they could never be separated. The phrase, I am in the Father and the Father is in me, in John 14:10-12 strongly opposes the possibility of the separation between God and Jesus and it also rejects the likeliness that God might not be in Jesus and vice versa. The same are supported by the following verses: John 8:29, “And he that sent me is with me…”; John 10:38, “…the Father is in me, and I in him.”; John 14:20, “…I am in my Father, and ye in me…”; John 16:32, “…I am not alone, because the Father is with me.” As proved above that God and Jesus Christ could never be separated, that implies that a person, that prays to receive Jesus Christ into his body, receives God into his body too.

    The unity of God the Father, the son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit could be found in the following verses: John 17:22-23, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one…”; John 17:21,”…thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us….”; 1 John 5:7-8, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, THE FATHER THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” As the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus Christ are united into one and they can never be separated, that make it possible for one to mention that there is only one God even though there are three persons since none of them could be separated from each other and that the three have been viewed as one as a whole number.

    As the Holy Spirit, God and the Holy Spirit could never be separated and they are united into one, a non-Christian, that prays to receive Jesus Christ into his body, receives the Holy Spirit and God simultaneously.

    Aug 12, 2010 at 9:11 pm
  • Jonathan CHM

    Does Acts 19:1-9 (Christians in Ephesus) give a strong proof that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit? Let’s meditate Acts 19:1-9: Acts 19:1-9, “…at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” The phrase, finding certain disciples, in Acts 19:1 does not give any strong proof whether these disciples were Jesus’ disciples or John at the time of their dialogue. There were a number of possibilities that can be viewed for the phrase, certain disciples, as mentioned in Acts 19:1: a) it could be that there were Jesus’ disciples and they did not know about the existence of the Holy Spirit and yet they did receive water baptism from John; b) it could be that there were John’s disciples and yet lately believed and followed Jesus; c) it could be that there were John’s disciples and had not believed in Jesus and yet lately followed Jesus: d) it could be that there were neither Jesus’ nor John’s disciples, yet had just converted to disciples not long ago; or etc. In view of the above possibilities, it is hard to jump into the conclusion using Acts 19:1 that these disciples were John’s disciples. Whether these people were John’s disciples or not, were not significant. The main thing that needs to be highlighted is that these people should not be questioned, Acts 19:2, “..Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?” This is by virtue of if these were John’s disciples and they had believed in Jesus, the Holy Spirit would have come immediately upon them at the time of their believes even though they only received John’s baptism and they did not know the Holy Spirit, with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. The reason is simply the knowledge that they acquired (whether they knew the Holy Spirit or whether they received only John’s baptism0 would not affect their salvation with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. As the phrase, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed, is mentioned in Acts 19:2, it gives an uncertainty that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. Some might argue that certain parts of the book of Acts were transitional period for the receiving of the Holy Spirit. However, the transitional period should have been ended at the time of Pentecost since John 16:7 mentions the receipt of the Holy Spirit was after the resurrection of Jesus. Those people that insist not to request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit while they are on earth with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit, would regret eternally what if they have discovered their past knowledge was wrong and that Jesus would speak to them that He does not know Him at end time as mentioned in Matthew 7:23. Disciples in current context. Acts 11:26, “(mentions that)…the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” As the phrase, the disciples, is mentioned in Acts 11:26 with the word, Christians, it implies that the word, disciple, and the word, Christian, can be interchangeable.

    Aug 27, 2010 at 11:25 pm
  • Jonathan CHM

    SINNER’S PRAYER (CONTINUED)

    THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD, BELIEVE, IN THE BIBLE

    The word, believe, in Strong’s Concordance in its original form is as follows: πιστεύω. The transliteration of the word, believe, in the Strong ’s Concordance is pisteuō. The following are the translations of the word, believe, as spelt out in the Strong’s Concordance:

    1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed 1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference 1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul 2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith 2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

    From the meaning of the word, believe, in the Strong Concordance, it is obvious that the word, believe, in its original word does not include repentance; justification; the immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit; and etc.

    THE REASONS THAT EPHESIANS 1:13-14, JOHN 3:16 AND ACTS 16:30-31 DO NOT PROVIDE ANY STRONG PROVES THAT BELIEVING IS SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY:

    Let’s meditate Ephesians 1:13-14, John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31 as follows:

    Ephesian 1:13-14, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    Acts 16:30-31, “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

    From the extracts, it is obvious that none of the verses above mention that a non-Christian needs to repent from sin in order to be saved except that he must believe. The meaning of the word, believe, in its original Greek/Hebrews word as mentioned early, does not give any implication that this word has to be dealt with repentance.

    It is erroneous to use Ephesians 1:13-14, John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31 to support that salvation could come about merely by believing without repentance since Psalm 5:4, “(mentions that) For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” As the phrase, not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee, is mentioned in Psalm 5:4, it implies total rejection from God for those people, that are without repentant hearts, continue in sinning, such as, worshipping idols and etc.

    Despite the absence of repentance in Ephesians 1:13-14, John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31, repentance of sin, such as, continuing in worshipping idols, has to be exercised in order to be born again. Otherwise, it would turn up to be that a non-Christian could continue in sin, such as, keep on worshipping idols and believe in Jesus at the same time, yet they could be saved on the condition that the concept of believing could be sealed with immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit, is true. The teaching would turn up to be absurd without any justification due to salvation could be brought out simply by believing at the absence of repentance and that the non-Christian could believe in Jesus as well as worshipping idols at the same time without any repentant heart.

    The support, that believing has to be followed with repentance, implies that believing is not sealed with immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit since there is something (and that is repentance) to do prior to a non-Christian to be born again. The reason is simply that a non-Christian, that believes, would not receive the Holy Spirit if he does not repent.

    It is irrational to use simply Ephesians 1:13-14, John 3:16 and Acts 16:30-31 to conclude God’s message intend for us. Matthew 5:9 is an excellent extract to prove the risk of misinterpretation of the Scripture by means of a single extract: Matthew 5:9, “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. As the word, peacemakers, is mentioned in Matthew 5:9 with the phrase, the children of God, a false message could come about that as long as a person, whether he is a believer or not, declares peace in this world, he could be considered as a child of God or Christian. Thus, using a verse to conclude God’s message is erroneous.

    As repentance is a must in order to be born again and yet it is not stated in Ephesians 1:13-14, John 3:16 as well as Acts 16:30-31, there should not be any unjustifiable ground to think that requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit should not be exercised just because it is not stated.

    COULD MATTHEW 7:21-23 BE APPLICABLE TO PROFESSING CHRISTIANS?

    Let’s meditate Matthew 7:21-23 below prior to our tackling to this question:

    Matthew 7:21-23, “Not every one that SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    The phrase, saith unto me Lord, in Matthew 7:21 implies that these people certainly believe in Jesus or else there should not be any reason for them to call Jesus as Lord. The word, never, in Matthew 7:23 implies that the Lord did not and do not and will not recognize them. For instance, if these people are professing Christians, Jesus should mention that He does not and will not recognize them since He surely knew them at the time of their conversion to Christianity initially. Jesus certainly knows His sheep for their callings at the time of their conversion to Christianity since John 10:27-28, “(mention that) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” As the word, never, is used in Matthew 7:23 instead of the phrase, does not and will not, it implies that He did not recognize them at anytime of their life span. This rejects the possibility that these people could have been born again in the past since, if that should be so, at least, Jesus should have recognized them in the past instead of mentioning, He never. As Jesus did not recognize them in the past, how could there be any possibility of them to have turning point to be born again? However, if Matthew 7:21 has been treated as there are for non-Christians, the whole sentences would turn up to be justifiable since Jesus did not and do not and will not recognize them due to there are not God’s people. In order to be Christians, Jesus Christ has to come into their lives to dominate in their lives and that is why sinner’s prayer has to be stressed.

    It is irrational to use Matthew 7:21-23 to conclude that Christians would lose salvation since 1 Corinth 3:12 opposes it? The following is the extract: 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. IF ANY MAN’S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”

    As proved that Mathew 7:21-23 should be applicable to non-Christians. Despite they were non-Christians, yet they believe in Jesus since they call Jesus as Lord as mentioned in Matthew 7:21. What if those people strongly believe that believing is sealed with the Holy Spirit and they fail to pray for the receipt of the Holy Spirit and yet in reality, the Holy Spirit would not be with them, they would regret eternally for their actions in not asking for the receipt of the Holy Spirit while they are on earth since Jesus would tell them that He never knows them as mentioned in Matthew 7:23.

    DO THE VERSES IN ACTS 19:1-6 GIVE A STRONG PROOF THAT BELIEVING IS SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY?

    There is no justifiable ground for one to assume that Acts 19:1-6 could support that believing is sealed with immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit for the following reasons:

    a} The phrase, Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed, in Acts 19:2 was the spoken words from Paul and this verse should not have any doctrinal error especially 2 Timothy 3:16, “(mentions that) All Scripture (is) given by inspiration of God, all (is) profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

    b} The subsequent verses of Acts 19:2 do substantiate the query about the uncertainty of the existence of the Holy Spirit among those people that declare to believe. The following is the elaboration:

    Those people did not receive the Holy Spirit when they heard the words of God as mentioned in Acts 19:5. They only received the Holy Spirit after Paul had laid his hands upon them in Acts 19:6. Bear in mind there is an obvious gap between the word, heard, in Acts 19:5 and the phrase, the Holy Ghost came on them, in Acts 9:6 in which they believed and yet the Holy Spirit was not with them.

    The following are the extracts for Acts 19:5-6:

    Acts 19:5-6, “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

    Unless they had received the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:5 at the time of their believes, it is rational to support that believing is sealed by the Holy Spirit. However, they received the Holy Spirit after Paul had laid his hand on them. It implies that believing is not sealed with the Holy Spirit immediately.

    As there is an uncertainty that believing could be sealed with the Holy Spirit immediately, those people, that proclaim to believe in Jesus, have to be accompanied with sinner’s prayer in order to be born again.

    Sep 10, 2010 at 9:01 pm
  • Jonathan CHM

    Some commentators might strongly oppose the request of the receipt of the Holy Spirit for the fact that the prophecy in John 16:7 pertaining to the receipt of the Holy Spirit should have been fulfilled in Acts 2 by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Pentecost. They treat John 4:10, John 6:32-34 and Luke 11:13 to be applicable only before the day of Pentecost and all the events as mentioned in the book of Acts to be in transitional period and these give them the conclusion that the request of the Holy Spirit should be nullified currently. Discuss.

    The comment that, John 16:7 is applicable to Acts 2 in which the disciples received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the current practice of requesting of the Holy Spirit should be in vain, has been found to be unjustifiable in the Gospel for the following reasons:

    a) John 16:7 mentions that the Holy Spirit had to be descended upon the disciples when Jesus was glorified and it should have been fulfilled in Acts 2. However, neither John 16:7 nor any verses from the Bible does mention that the practice of requesting of the Holy Spirit should be abandoned after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in Acts 2. By asserting that the requesting of the Holy Spirit should be nullified after the day of Pentecost, is simply the act of making presumption in which it is not stated in the Bible. Or in other words, they simply add words of presumption that is not even stated in the Bible. We have been warned in the Bible not to abuse the Scripture by adding or subtracting words. Unless a verse or sentence has been stated clearly elsewhere in the Bible that requesting of the Holy Spirit has to be ceased or to be nullified after the day of Pentecost, it should then be rational to conclude that requesting of the Holy Spirit is redundant and not be to exercised in the future.

    b)Some commentators might suggest that the phrase, they were come down prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Acts 8:15 to be the exceptional case with their presumption that this event should fall during transitional period. However, neither Acts 8 nor any verses from the Bible that mentions that Acts 8 should be meant for transitional period and that should be the ultimate reason for the request of the Holy Spirit. By asserting that the event as mentioned in Acts 8 to be the transitional period has caused one to add words of presumption that is not even mentioned in the Scripture. What if the event as mentioned in Acts 8:15 in reality should not be meant for transitional period, the phrase, they were come down prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, in Acts 8:15 would give the impression that God demands the practice of the praying of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in Acts 2. As nothing is mentioned in Acts 8 that it is meant for transitional period to excuse people in the future to pray for the receipt of the Holy Spirit other than the presumptuous thought from some commentators, the intention to do away the requesting of the Holy Spirit with excuses to be give, would ultimately cause many people to be in the doom with their presumption that they have received the Holy Spirit and yet in reality, they might not have.

    c) Some commentators might have suggested that the phrase, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?, in Acts 19:2 is meant to be either the spoken words raised during the transitional period or for other excuse reason (such as, this is meant to be for exceptional case due to they had received or known merely John’s baptism) to discourage people from requesting the receipt of the Holy Spirit. However, neither Acts 19 nor any verses in the Bible does mention that Acts 19 should be meant for transitional period. The commentators simply add words of assumption to discourage people from requesting of the Holy Spirit. What if Acts 19 should not be considered as transitional period or it was not due to other reason (such as they had merely received John’s baptism) in realtiy, those people, that have this presumptuous thought, have undoubtedly added words of presumption in which they are not mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. What if praying for the receipt of the Holy Spirit has to be considered as part of the plan for God’s salvation, the intention to avoid and mislead many not to pray to receive the Holy Spirit, would cause many to be in the doom for not to be born again.

    d)Neither John 4:10 nor John 6:32-34 nor Luke 11:13 mentions that the practice of the requesting of the Holy Spirit should be ceased on the day of Pentecost, it is irrational to add words of presumption in the Bible in which it is not even stated. John 16:7 emphasizes on the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when Jesus was glorified and nothing is mentioned vividly in the Bible about the cessation of the request of the Holy Spirit after the Pentecost. The commentators simply derive conclusion through guessing work that the practice of the requesting of the Holy Spirit should have been ceased after the Pentecost or the so-called, transitional period, that is defined by them, but not mentioned in the Bible.

    Any mis-interpretation on the part of the way to salvation would simply lead people to presume that they are saved and have received the Holy Spirit without the realisation of the possible absence of the Holy Spirit within their bodies.

    Mar 18, 2011 at 9:02 pm
  • Jonathan CHM

    Some commentators might use the following verses to oppose the use of sinner’s prayer with the excuse that the Holy Spirit should be with them simply by mentioning that they do confess that Jesus is the Son of God and their recognition about the resurrection of Jesus:

    1 John 4:15, “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

    Romans 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

    Discuss.

    At a glance, the phrase, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, in 1 John 4:15 seems to imply that all those people, that confess Jesus as the Son of God, must have received the Holy Spirit. However, the following are the two distinctive cases from the Bible that have brought us to the attention that not all the people, that proclaim Jesus is the Son of God, have received the Holy Spirit:

    a) Instances below that give us the implication that people could proclaim Jesus to be the Son of God even prior to the resurrection of Jesus:

    i) Matthew 14:33, “Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, of a truth thou art the Son of God.”

    ii) Matthew 27:54, “Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.”

    iii) Mark 15:39, “And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.”

    iv) John 1:49, “Nathamael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the king of Israel.”

    v) John 11:27, “She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

    The following are the extracts that prove that those people, that are mentioned in Matthew 14:33, 27:54; John 1:49, 11:27, and Mark 15:39, did not receive the Holy Spirit prior to the resurrection of Jesus:

    i) John 7:39, “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive, for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

    ii) John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

    Despite Matthew 14:33, 27:54; Mark 15:39; John 1:49 and John 11:27 were the events occurred prior to the day that Jesus was glorified and these people should not have received the Holy Spirit as mentioned in John 7:39 and 16:7, yet they could proclaim Jesus as the Son of God at the absence of the Holy Spirit. This gives the ultimate conclusion that those people, that could proclaim Jesus to be the Son of God in this modern society, do not give any strong proof that they have God to be dwelt within their bodies.

    b) Instances from the Scripture to prove that even demons could comment that Jesus is the Son of God and yet God do not dwell within their bodies. The following are the extracts:

    i) Matthew 8:29, “And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

    ii) Mark 3:11, “And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.”

    iii) Luke 4:41, “And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuke them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.”

    iv) Luke 8:28, “When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most High? I beseech thee, torment me not.”

    From the above explanations and the extracts, these could easily arrive at the conclusion that it is irrational to determine whether a person has received the Holy Spirit by simply hearing him/her in proclaiming that Jesus is the Son of God.

    As it is irrational to determine whether a person has received the Holy Spirit simply by hearing him/her in proclaiming that Jesus is the Son of God, does it imply that 1 John 4:15 is contradictory to Matthew 14:33, 27:54; John 1:49, 11:27, and Mark 15:39? No, it is irrational to jump into this conclusion what if the word, confess, in 1 John 4:15 should be interpreted with broader definition that it should be accompanied with action instead of restricting it to merely mouth-to-mouth confession. When the word, confess, in 1 John 4:15 has been interpreted with broader definition to include our sincere action towards God in treating and letting Jeus to be truly the Son of God to reign in our lives, we then would discover 1 John 4:15 does not contradict itself with other verses in the Bible. Or in other words, the person that confess that Jesus is the Son of God need to have high respect of Jesus and to allow Him to come into his/her life so as to take control of him/her.

    James 2:19 provides the truth that the devils even believe in God and yet they tremble as a result of their faith without action. A person might proclaim that he/she believes in Jesus to be the Son of God and his/her Lord and yet God is interested whether his faith is accompanied with action through his/her willingness to accept Him to be his/her Personal Saviour and Lord. The following are the extracts from James 2:19-24 and these are self-explanatory:

    James 2:19-24, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

    Apr 8, 2011 at 12:33 am
  • bradybro1423

    That was great! Please keep up the good work.

    Apr 29, 2011 at 3:51 am
  • You suck at radio

    Van Hale is the most annoying person in radio I have ever had to listen to. His monotone unpleasant voice, stammering, and childish ways of arguing made my ears literally bleed.

    Nov 20, 2011 at 4:15 pm