Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

91. Joseph Smith Papers: Two Revelations Manuscripts

mormonmisc — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:21:52 +0000

91. Joseph Smith Papers: Two Revelations Manuscripts

These two manuscript revelations were written in the 1830s, and now published in 2009. These two include a number Joseph Smith’s revelations from 1829 to 1835. One of the manuscript was recently found. The other manuscript has been known for many years.

The authors of this book are: Robin Jensen, Bob Woodford and Steve Harper. They discuss many topics and questions with the host, Van Hale. New information provides some old unanswered questions. Yet, other questions still beg for further research and insight. Many Latter-day Saints and their historians are anxious too understand details of their history.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 01 November 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855.

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@earthlink.net.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

90. Writings of the Early Christians 100-125 AD

mormonmisc — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:19:03 +0000

90. Writings of the

Early Christians 100-125 AD

Four of five areas of the first half of the 100 AD with be mentioned in further programs. Tonight those authoritative writings are those of this discussion.

1. What was the Godhead at this early view.

2. Jesus as his view has conceived.

3. What was the view of salvation.

4. What was to be the church organization.

5. What was the concepts of authoritative writings.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 21 June 2009 episode of the

Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855.

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@earthlink.net.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

[89] 29 Years of Mormon Miscellaneous

mormonmisc — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:04:05 +0000

[89]

29 Years of Mormon Miscellaneous

My wife, Catherine, and long time associate, Steve Mayfield, joined me to discuss the 29 years of weekly talk shows. We discussed the origin and history of the program; some of the guests and topics and some of the myths fabricated about me and the program.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 7 June 2009 episode of the

Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

, now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@k-talk.com

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

88. A Catholic and a Mormon #2

mormonmisc — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:01:56 +0000

88. A Catholic and a Mormon #2

My guest, Vic Scaravilli, is a Catholic interested in Catholic apologetics, with an interest in Mormon claims and belief. We continued our discussion.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 31 May 2009 episode of the

Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

, now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@earthlink.net

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

A Catholic and a Mormon

mormonmisc — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:27:42 +0000

A Catholic and a Mormon

My guest, Vic Scaravilli, is a Catholic interested in Catholic apologetics, with an interest in Mormon claims and belief. This was my first Catholic guest in 29 years. We discussed:

Are Mormons Christians?

Defining Christ and Christian

Question of diversity on Jesus in the New Testament

Considering the view of Jesus found in Mark, Could the author of that work be considered a Christian?

Origins of the New Testament canon

Questions of Authority

When do Mormons claim the Church apostatized?

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 31 May 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Nauvoo High Council Minutes

mormonmisc — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:05:39 +0000

The Nauvoo High Council Minutes

The Nauvoo High Council minutes are preserved in the LDS Archives. The nature and authority of this body can be outlined by the issues it considered and the actions taken. Attitudes of the council on marriage, divorce, remarriage, plural marriage, sexual immorality, disputes among members, spiritual claims and doctrinal teachings, disfellowshipment, excommunication and reinstatement, and the attitude and requests of Joseph Smith are among the many entries in this valuable record which I will discuss.

Belief, skepticism and proofs.

More on allegations of Temple blood oaths.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 26 April 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Mormon History Association Representatives

mormonmisc — Sun, 24 May 2009 22:24:51 +0000

One guest was Kathyrn Daynes, current president of the Mormon History Association. The other was Paul Reeve, a member of the MHA Board. Both teach history, Daynes at BYU and Reeve at the University of Utah. They are both award winning authors. Daynes has written a book, More Wives than One. Reeve’s book is

Making Space on the Western Frontier: Mormons,. Miners, and Southern Paiutes.

We discussed the upcoming Mormon Historical Association Annual Conference including a number of the topics to be covered, the history of the MHA and how a typical Conference is conducted.

Both guests commented on the difficulties of writing of historical papers and books.

Daynes shared her perspective on a number of points and issues in Mormon practice of plural marriage in the 19th century.

We also discussed Reeve’s research into the competing ethnicities in 19th century Mormon experience.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 17 May 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Mike Haxton, an ex-Mormon Bishop

mormonmisc — Sat, 09 May 2009 20:08:23 +0000

Mike Haxton, an ex-Mormon Bishop

We discussed the 1611 King James Bible which Haxton claims was superintended by God and is God’s word in English. We pursued the question of which KJV is God’s word since it was 6000 verses longer in 1611 than the editions published today. Haxton denied this. We discussed the modern translations, I argued for their value, he contended that they contain the word of God, but they are not the word of God as is the KJV.

We also discussed his stated view that salvation comes by grace through faith, nothing more and nothing less. In this discussion Haxton did, however, express his view that repentance and obedience to God’s commands are required for salvation.

The controversial topic of the Trinity was considered briefly.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address:http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 12 April 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Early Publications of the Revelations

mormonmisc — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:12:53 +0000

Early Publications of the Revelations

My guest was Curt Bench. He is the proprietor of Benchmark Books in Salt Lake City and an expert on the wide range of publications on Mormonism over the past 179 years. Curt is a veteran dealer in publications old and new, rare and common.

Smith-Pettit Foundation has just published The Parallel Doctrine and Covenants: The 1832-1833, 1833, and 1835 Editions of Joseph Smith’s Revelations. Curt authored the introduction. We discussed the history of the publication of Joseph Smith’s revelations up to 1835. Among the several early printings of the revelations there are many textual variations for a variety of reasons. The variants can be easily followed with this new important contribution to the study of early Mormonism. We discussed several and also views of the nature of Joseph Smith’s concept of revelation which would account for the changes made in the revelations.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 3 May 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” belowTo listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

More on the Temple Ceremony

mormonmisc — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:58:48 +0000

More on the Temple Ceremony

I continue a discussion of alleged elements of the temple ceremony which I began last week. I present and discuss sources regarding the numerous allegations that in the 19th century Mormons, by oath, committed themselves to murder Americans and to seek the destruction of the Nation. I do this in response to a post

Other topics raised by participants include the question of the frequency and recording of revelations; the policies regarding the establishment of authority; a debate on the Biblical infallibility; Mormons saving the Constitution.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 29 March 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Big Love and the Temple Ceremony

mormonmisc — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 22:31:12 +0000

Big Love and the Temple Ceremony

Please be advised that this is a sensitive topic for LDS. Big Love is an HBO fictional series about a non-LDS group which subscribes to, and practices, their interpretation of Mormon polygamy of the 19th century. In the 15 March 2009 episode a false allegation is made about a commitment made, prior to 1990, by LDS participants in the LDS temple ceremony.

I discuss this and several other false allegations about the temple ceremony found in a number of anti-Mormon books, pamphlets and articles.

These topics include: blood oaths, an oath of vengeance, a lecture and human executions.

Topics raised by callers:

Alleged blood oath

Creation accounts in Genesis

Alleged lecture at the veil in the St George Temple

22 March 2009 Episode

Doctrine and Covenants #2

mormonmisc — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:27:34 +0000

Doctrine and Covenants #2

I present an overview of the history of the D&C from 1828 to 1981 dicussing some additions, deletions, modifications, historical situations and doctrinal points.

I have a selection of notecards from my notecard collection I will be reading. It is Notecard Selection #7. I will email it to those who email me their request to van.hale@k-talk.com.

Topics raised by callers include:

Contents of the Book of Commandments Did Joseph Smith have children by any of his plural wives? Did not Heber J. Grant attempt to shorten the D&C substantially? Question on my view on Plural Marriage. The Kirtland Revelations Book.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 18 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Genesis of the Joseph Smith Papers Project

mormonmisc — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0000

Genesis of the Joseph Smith Papers Project

My guest was Ron Esplin, Managing Editor of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. We discussed the genesis of this project including the original record keeping, the scope of the surviving documents, efforts to publish early Joseph Smith documents leading to the current exhaustive project.

Ron gave details of the involvement of a very prominent Salt Lake business man, Larry Miller, who just passed away. Miller owned a number car dealships, theaters, the Utah Jazz professional basketball team and a number of other enterprises. The story of his introduction to the project, his interest and involvement prove to be very interesting.

In 2001 the LDS First Presidency decided that the entire collection of Joseph Smith Papers would be published in what will be about 30 volumes. Top professional historians and archivists are working on the project to produce a publication to meet the highest of professional standards.

Callers raised questions about the Articles of Faith, new material, revelations and insights regarding Joseph Smith, the value and problems with reminscences.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 1 March 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

An Original Apostle’s Notebook is Discovered

mormonmisc — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 04:47:44 +0000

My guest was Brent Ashworth, a well-known and long-time collector of Mormon documents. He recently discovered an 1871 notebook of William E. McLellin who was an LDS convert in 1831, who served in several callings in the Church, including his membership in the first Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1835. Several factors lead to his excommunication in 1838.

He participated briefly in a splinter group before Joseph Smith’s murder and organized his own group after. A number of his personal writings have been discovered - his early diaries and several notebooks. This notebook presents his views and reminiscences on a number of topics and his enduring conviction that Joseph Smith had been a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is of Divine origin.

Ashworth and I discussed the notebook in some detail and he read a number of selections from it.

We also discussed some of Ashworth’s other purchases including some of the forged documents of the infamous Mark Hoffman.

Several participated questions by phone and email.

(The photo above is Brent Ashworth with the notebook. The photo below is the notebook opened to page 14-15)

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 8 February 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

D&C Facts and History #1

mormonmisc — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:27:10 +0000

D&C Facts and History #1

I raise a number of questions I will address regarding the history and content of the Doctrine and Covenants including additions and deletions in various editions.

Joseph Smith’s selection for the D&C in 1835 and 1844 differed from that of Orson Pratt and Brigham Young in 1876. Does this fact raise any questions?

Book of Commandments.

1835 Doctrine and Covenants

General Assembly called to vote for or against the D&C

Early publication of some revelations.

Comments on D&C 76, 121, 109, 129-131, 89

Procedure regarding acceptance or rejection of revelation.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 11 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Joseph Smith Papers Interview

mormonmisc — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:49:01 +0000

Joseph Smith Papers Interview

The LDS Church has begun a major project involving professionally trained historians to gather, prepare, edit and publish the papers of Joseph Smith, mostly located in the LDS Archives. This is to meet the highest professional standards. The first volume was just published. It publishes, word for word, the journals of Joseph Smith for the period of 1832-1839, with many footnotes, biographical and geographical notes, a glossary and chronology. It begins with an exellent overview of the life of Joseph Smith.

I spent the evening conversing with Mark Ashurst-McGee and Richard Jensen, two of the editors of this first volume. The following is a list of some of the topics covered:

Nature of the journals

What they reveal of Joseph Smith

The degree of his religiosity

Remarkable Book Sales

Credibility of the editorial process

Objectivity of the editors

The involvement of LDS Authorities

Danites

Reasons the Church has hired LDS historians for this project

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 4 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Mormons & Modern Israel

mormonmisc — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:18:20 +0000

Mormons and Modern Israel

My guest is Daniel Rona. He was born in Israel - Educated in America - and was a radio and TV broadcaster in Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Chicago and New York, as well as an international newscaster for the Voice of Israel. Thirty-five years ago, he returned to Israel with his wife, Marilyn, and three children, they now have five children and six grandchildren. Daniel Rona is still providing learning experiences in and about Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Central America. He has been the only L.D.S. licensed tour guide and tour operator in Israel for close to thirty years. The Deseret News said, His background is unique: he is an American, an Israeli, a Mormon, and a Jew!

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 4 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Hard Evidence and Religious Conviction

mormonmisc — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:16:19 +0000

Hard Evidence and Religious Conviction

Guest host Don Ormsby addressed the following topics raised by participants and by himself:

A brand of Islam and racism

Who is saved

Belief in the Bible and Book of Mormon is not to be based on proof

Blacks and Mormonism

Financing the Book of Mormon

How do you prove something in scripture is true

Is there hard evidence of the resurrection of Jesus

Polygamy

Faith is not to be based on archaeology

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 14 September 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Polygamy: Joseph Smith’s Letter of Explanation

mormonmisc — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:25:30 +0000

Polygamy: Joseph Smith’s Letter of Explanation

A letter of Joseph Smith on polygamy is well-known to many LDS as an article on Happiness. It was written such that its meaning would be hidden to those who do not know its historical context.

Its history includes a stir among LDS in Nauvoo in 1842, significant confrontations, exchanges in the newspapers, denials, defections and information on the early, private promulgation of polygamy.

Its content gives important insight into Joseph Smith’s views and even includes a revelation. Further, it is an excellent example of a literary form which clearly teaches an impressive message on the surface, but then buried beneath the surface is a deeper message comparable to occasions when Jesus taught something seemingly simple but then invited his disciples to think deeper with the phrase “he that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Those interested in a copy of the Joseph Smith letter discussed which I have placed in a parallel column with D&C 132 send your request to van.hale@k-talk.com and I will send it to you by email.

This is the 7 September 2008 episode.

Would God … ?

mormonmisc — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:39:02 +0000

Would God … ?

Numerous arguments resort to a declaration of what God would, or would not, do, often quoting a Biblical verse to bolster the argument. However, when the Bible is examined extensively, God’s parameters on many points seem very broad and often vary according to the circumstance as we see in pursuit of such questions as:

Does God cause sin? Does God deceive? Does God change? Does God punish one for someone else’s sin?

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

• This is the 13 July 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

• To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

• If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

I discuss this issue referring to a number of Biblical passages.

More Thinking About Scriptures & Tradition

mormonmisc — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:56:42 +0000

More Thinking About Scriptures & Tradition

I discuss some points raised by passages and situations in the scriptures.

• Israelite views of proselyting• Deuteronmy 32:8 and an ancient concept of God called henotheism

• New Testament writers drawing from the Old Testament without concern for historicity

• Issue of retaining or setting aside the Law

• Power of tradition - even the Saints are slow to accept anything contrary to their tradition

• Joseph Smith’s progressive outlook

• Questions on Book of Mormon Historicity

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

• This is the 15 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

• To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

• If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

LDS / non-LDS Exchange

mormonmisc — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:15:00 +0000

LDS / non-LDS Exchange

Don Ormsby, a guest host on the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, talks with Randy Loeppky a non-LDS Christian an active advocate that Mormon claims are false and Mormons are not Christian.

Discussion of whether or not the Church officers named in the New Testament should be continued in the Christian Church today.

Participants asked about Sunday restrictions, who will be saved?, the Nicene Creed and early views of the possibility of man’s deification; revelation, why accept the Bible as the exclusive standard.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 31 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Mystery of the Book of Mormon Translation

mormonmisc — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:26:44 +0000

Mystery of the Book of Mormon Translation

I discuss the numerous early sources, beginning in 1829, regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. Differing statements, peculiaries versions of the Book of Mormon supervised by Joseph Smith (the original manuscript and the printer’s manuscript, the 1830, 1837 and 1840 editions) and points of logic and reason. These factors have lead to several theories as to the source of the text of the Book of Mormon. After some 180 years the matter yet remains a mystery.

I focus especially on questions pertaining to the use of the interpreters, urim and thummin, seerstone and director.

I explain my own theory of the Book of Mormon translation.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Talk Show Blog:

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 24 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Testimony, Faith, Belief, Knowledge

mormonmisc — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:16:41 +0000

Testimony, Faith, Belief, Knowledge

I addressed several points touched upon in recent talk shows and in follow-up emails regarding testimony, faith, belief, knowledge, sure knowledge.I have been a little surprised at the divergence of opinion on what I think should be simple definitions and in the fervor of those who subscribe to these different positions.What does it mean to have a testimony? Does that mean a sure knowledge?

The LDS sources on this are extensive. We have good reason to be more precise in our use of words. When someone declares “I know…” I think there is value in that phrase having a precise meaning.

I read a number of sources which support my conclusion that belief and knowledge in our religious terminology are different. I am comfortable with being a believer and declaring my convictions as belief rather than knowledge.

Subjects raised by phone participants

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Common consent and false belief and prophecy

Degrees of knowledge

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 24 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Mormons Who Ran for President

mormonmisc — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:50:16 +0000

Mormons Who Ran for President

Newell Bringhurst and Craig Foster joined me to discuss their new book on 10 Mormons who have run for President: The Mormon Quest for the Presidency. These include Joseph Smith, the two Romneys, Ezra Taft Benson, Orrin Hatch, Sonia Johnson and 4 others.

Points discussed include:

White Horse Prophecy Authors’ presentations in the upcoming Sunstone Symposium and FAIR Conference Conspiracy to assassinate Joseph Smith Why did Joseph decide to run for President? Was it Joseph Smith’s plan to move LDS headquarters from Nauvoo? Participation by callers and email

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 3 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Massacre at Mountain Meadows

mormonmisc — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:21:13 +0000

Massacre at Mountain Meadows

One hundred twenty emigrants passing through southern Utah on their way to California in 1857, at a time when the U.S. Army was on its way to Salt Lake City, unannounced and unexplained by President Buchanan, were massacred by Mormons and Indians, the Mormons taking the lead. Much written on the topic has been marred by bias, agendas and selective use of inadequate sources. Three LDS professional historians, with the input and review of many, LDS and non-LDS, representing a wide range of perspectives, have written what promises to be a masterpiece of historical research and writing.

Ron Walker and Glen Leonard, co-authors of this long awaited book Massacre at Mountain Meadows, were my guests. We discussed their rendition of this event, including new sources and perspectives, resulting from their extensive research on this controversial topic. The third co-author, Rick Turley, Assistant LDS Church Historian, was in Mexico.

Further, the authors spoke of their determination to examine the known sources which pertain to the topic and to seek out previously unknown sources. They explained the position of Church leadership to give them free access to all historical holdings of the Church and that their writing and conclusions would not be supervised nor reviewed by Church authorities. The book is published by Oxford University Press which has a reputation for publishing works which meet a high professional standard. The first printing of 10,000 was sold out before the official release, the second printing will not supply the current demand and a third printing is already planned.

A Visit with a Mormon Apologist

mormonmisc — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:37:27 +0000

A Visit with a Mormon Apologist

Mike Ash will be my guest to discuss his new book: Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One’s Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt. His approach is the presentation of source material and logic to answer, from a faith promoting perspective, many issues which lead some to doubt their LDS faith. He deals with such topics as: Revelation, prophets, scripture and historical issues. Some of the specifics include, changes in scripture, response to the insistence that prophets must be infallible and omniscient, challenges to Book of Mormon histority and similar challenges to the Book of Abraham, the first vision issues and many others.

Major Issues which trouble LDS who study points raised by critics.

Polygamy Godhead Book of Mormon historicity Book of Abraham historicity Differences in First Vision accounts Differences between scientists and some events in our scripture

LDS attitudes which lead to doubts

Belief that the Church and its leaders are infallible LDS in their testimonies declare that they know, rather than that they believe

Positions which dispell many arguments of critics

Prophets are not infallible Prophets are not omniscientThe Church is not perfect Scriptures are not perfect There is much to learn about God, salvation, mysteries which will not be learned in this life LDS prophets have differed in their beliefs on various doctrinal points God gives revelations which are unexpected Belief that parts of scripture are not to be taken literally There is very little mandatory doctrine Recognition of the shotgun approach of many critics

Issues raised

The Church does not believe in civil rights A caller claimed that my guest and I are cultural Mormons who believe that the Church and its leaders are infallible. He claimed I am a liberal. I declared that he was correct; that I am a disciple of Joseph Smith, and by virtue of my belief in his teachings, I am a liberal. Literal interpretation of Noah’s Flood

Discussion of a panel at the Sunstone Symposium which reviewed Mike Ash’s book

Discussion of the recent FAIR Conference and the FAIR organization

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 17 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Perspective of a Black Convert

mormonmisc — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:59:16 +0000

Perspective of a Black Convert

My guest was Marvin Perkins, an enthusiastic Black Mormon. He is a convert to the LDS Church who has spent considerable time pondering and researching the issue of Blacks in LDS history and Scripture. He has been lecturing on the topic with long-time, well-known Black member, Darius Gray. They have published a set of two DVD’s of recorded live lectures. These are well organized presentations with a strong focus on insights, and I would say, surprises from the Scriptures. We discussed his perspective and included participants by phone and email. He and brother Gray host a website: http://www.blacksinthescriptures.com/.

Topics discussed include:

Many relevant scriptures including new footnotes in the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith’s views on Blacks, slavery and the universality of the restoration.

Diversity of the views of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

Origin of the priesthood restriction for Black Mormons.

President David O. McKay’s view.

President Hinkley’s view.

Current needs within the Church to establish fully a universal brotherhood.

Blacks in the pre-existence.

The war in heaven.

The June 1978 revelation.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 23 March 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Joseph Smith’s View of Ancient Curses

mormonmisc — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:33:46 +0000

Joseph Smith’s View of Ancient Curses

I began by noting what I consider to be basic, elementary questions which require a leap of faith. They include: How what we know exists came to exist?; The universe: how? why? for what purpose? Is it the result of some intelligent design? Is it managed by a higher intelligence? Is all an accident or is it for some divine purpose?

Joseph Smith presented some of his views against slavery in the platform on which he was running for President. I discussed other sources in which we find Joseph Smith’s views.

I engaged in some debate with a caller over Joseph Smith’s views. I insisted that there has been no evidence, from sources produced before Joseph Smith’s death, that he believed an ancient curse was to be continued in the Restoration. And further, I presented some from a substantial body of sources that he believed that all should, regardless of ancestry, be considered equal, a view he was vigorously advocating at the time of his death. The caller, in his argument, ignored the statements of Joseph Smith written and published before his death, and rather relied upon a late reminiscence which alleged that Joseph Smith realized that he had been in error declared that the blacks were, in fact, yet under an ancient curse.

This is the 16 March 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Apologetics: A Believer’s Answers

mormonmisc — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:52:21 +0000

Apologetics: A Believer’s Answers

Don Ormsby hosted the program this week and Jeff Lindsay joined him to discuss Mormonism from an apologetic perspective. Jeff explained Mormon apologetics as he sees it. He addresses many issues on his website jefflindsay.com

Callers and email prompted Jeff’s extensive discussion of the Book of Abraham. He also discussed creation, DNA, secret combinations and the anti-Mormon activity at the annual LDS pageant in Manti, Utah.

This is the 6 July 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

The Curse of Cain and Ham

mormonmisc — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:47:23 +0000

The Curse of Cain and Ham

I discussed differing views of Mormons regarding slavery and priesthood denial to blacks. This is a complex historical and theological issue with many avenues of discussion. I will focus primarily upon the views of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I discussed differing views of Mormons regarding slavery and priesthood denial to blacks. This is a complex historical and theological issue with many avenues of discussion. I will focus primarily upon the views of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.Also, I will raise and briefly address various angles and arguments which have been batted around over the past 17 decades:

What was the curse on Cain?
What was the curse on Ham?
How long was the curse to continue?
Did the slavery curse end with the Civil War?
What of the view that Blacks are intellectually inferior?
Did JS initiate Black priesthood denial?
What were JS’s views on slavery?
What was BY’s view on slavery?
What scriptural support is there for priesthood denial?
What scriptural support is there for modern continuation of slavery?
How is a Black to be defined?
When was importation of African slaves banned in the U.S.?

This is the 9 March 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

Why Common Consent

mormonmisc — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:56:07 +0000

Why Common Consent?

From the very beginning of the Church to the present, the operation of its various entities and the general body of the Church itself exercise the principle of common consent on a wide range of decisions. From the very beginning of the Church to the present, the operation of its various entities and the general body of the Church itself exercise the principle of common consent on a wide range of decisions.If God calls prophets and directs their every action and belief by revelation why would common consent be the foundation of the operation of the Church organization?

From the very beginning of the Church to the present, the operation of its various entities and the general body of the Church itself exercise the principle of common consent on a wide range of decisions.If God calls prophets and directs their every action and belief by revelation why would common consent be the foundation of the operation of the Church organization?Why would the President and Prophet hold that position only with the consent of the faithful body of the Saints?

Why would the collection and publication of certain revelations to Joseph Smith and others require the vote of the Church members?

Why would a unanimous decision of the Quorum of the Twelve be more authoritative than than a majority decision?

Why would the President and Prophet consult with his counsellors on all important matters?

There are many historical sources which provide insights into these questions and reveal an important aspect of Joseph Smith’s views and claims. I will discuss these sources and the two major conclusions among LDS as to the intent and value of the principle of Common Consent.

This is the 2 March 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

An Alleged Prophet

mormonmisc — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:35:14 +0000

An Alleged Prophet

Art Bulla has been claiming for almost 3 decades to be the successor of Joseph Smith holding the highest priesthood keys, being the Lord’s annointed and even superior to Joseph Smith and his successors, claiming to be One Mighty and Strong, to set an apostate LDS Church in order.After many years of discussion on the air and in person with Art Bulla I have decided to address his claims directly by talking about some basic principles of Mormonism introduced by Joseph Smith and endorsed by his successors, but ignored or denied by Bulla. I have tried hard to understand his claims.

Basically, he claims that his having been ordained a 70 gives him the highest priesthood keys, eventhough he was excommunicated from the Church. He argues that a person need not be a member of the Church to hold the highest priesthood keys. In fact, he claims that the highest keys are held by a council known as the Council of 50, organized by Joseph Smith in 1844. However, to be a member of this Council, according to Bulla, holding the highest priesthood keys, a person did not need to believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, Jesus or God.

Bulla claims he received the highest priesthood keys from the Church, which he asserts has been in apostasy for some time. I have asked him a number of times to trace the highest keys, those to be held only by one man at a time on the earth, from Joseph Smith to himself. He has never gone beyond Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or John Taylor. He weaves a claim of revelation; a pre-existent foreordination; ordination to a 70 before his excommunication; extension of the priesthood to the blacks in 1978, resulting, as he alleges, to a latter-day apostasy of the Church; a total disregard for the vision of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, of great success and expansion of the Church worldwide, diminishing this vision to that of one prophet holding the keys, with one disciple, no Church or priesthood quorums.

I discuss such Mormon Basics as:

The highest priesthood keys were to be invested in the Church.

The President of the Church is the President of the High Priesthood.

All who leave the Church or are excommunicated hold no priesthood keys or authority.

There is to be no modern-day apostasy of the Church.

The meaning of D&C 85 on the “one mighty and strong.”

Understanding the United Firm

mormonmisc — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:28:50 +0000

Understanding the United FirmMy guest was Max Parkin. He is retired from the LDS Church Educational System (CES) after spending a lifetime in the study and teaching of Mormon topics.

Currently, he is working with many others on the extensive Joseph Smith Papers Project. Specifically he is dealing with those Joseph Smith documents for the period of 1834-1838. Max gave details about this project which is to result in the publication of some 30 volumes.

Max provided important clarification of economics of the Church in Kirtland and Missouri in 1832-1834. Click to read his 73 page article on the subject.He explained such terms as:

The United Firm

The United Order

The Order of Enoch

Consecration

Stewardship

He addressed such issues as:

Ownership of property - Church owned and individually owned

Financial workings of the Church during this early period

Reasons for the failure of the the United Firm in Kirtland

Reasons for conflicts between the Saints and the non-LDS residents in Independence Missouri.

Deed of ownership and deed of stewardship

Max explained that the publication of revelations (78, 82, 102, 103, 104) in the 1835 D&C were altered to disguise the United Firm and those who were its managers.

Callers:

Discussion with a caller on tithing and celestial law.

Response to caller regarding his claim that the motivation of Church leaders has always been greed.

Discussion with a caller on consecration

A question from a caller about having all things in common. Max explained that Joseph Smith had no view of common ownership.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 8 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Mormonism in Print

mormonmisc — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:06:16 +0000

Mormonism in Print

My guest, Curt Bench, is the owner of Benchmark Books and a leading authority on books published on Mormon history, doctrine, theology, biography, diaries etc. He deals in new, used and rare books. Following is a list of some topics covered in our discussion.

Book recommendationsComments on a number of books on MormonismA new publication of the first 3 editions of the Book of Mormon in parallel columns

Book of Mormon original manuscript, printers manuscript, first three printed additions

The rare Mormon book business - current going price for an original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon

Are there books which have been a challenge to our faith?

Paul H. Dunn books

Censured or Banned books

Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine

Upcoming publication of the Joseph Smith Papers

Writing of history

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 1 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

The Bible: Basic Reasoning

mormonmisc — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 04:51:45 +0000

The Bible: Basic Reasoning

I engage in some basic reasoning which logically follows from some simple facts about the Bible. I am surprised at the large number of Bible advocates who have not even considered the implication of many simple facts. Follow is a brief list of topics discussed.

King James Version

Comments on the development of the numerous ancient and modern canons called the Bible

Divergent views of Jews at the beginning of the Christian era

The question of the Dead Sea Scrolls

There was not a gap of several centuries, as many have assumed, in Jewish religious writings between what are called the OT and the NT

The New Testament views regarding the after life - heaven, hell, judgment etc. - have their roots, not in the Protestant OT or NT, but rather in Jewish writings available at the beginning of the Christian era some of which can be found in some ancient and modern canons, and some which are not found in any canon.

Footnotes and study Bibles

A caller insisted that baptism is found in the Old Testament

An email asked questions as to why LDS continue to use the KJV

A caller commented on Tyndale’s translation and execution

Response to an email about documents upon which parts of the four Gospels were based

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 10 February 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Polygamy: The Utah Attorney General Speaks

mormonmisc — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 16:50:27 +0000

Polygamy & the Utah Attorney General

What follows is a very interesting discussion I had a couple of years ago on the topic of modern polygamy in Utah with my guest was Mark Shurtleff, the Utah State Attorney General.

Unfortunately, the digital recording failed and this comes from a rather poor tape recording made by one of my listeners.

But, because of the topic’s timeliness, I am posting this episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show to my podcast site. A.G. Shurtleff gives considerable information and insight into events which currently are widely discussed daily in the national news media regarding the recent raid by Texas law inforcement agents of the polygamous community known as the FLDS, or the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

More than 400 children were taken from their homes and families and placed in State custody. What will be their future and how Texas, Utah and other states will deal with polygamy and other forms of non-traditional illegal sexual relationships has captured the interest of Americans.

Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and I were joined by callers in the discussion of:

Modern polygamy in Utah;

Utah laws regarding sexuality;

Various definitions of statutory rape;

Legal age for sexual activity;

Legal age and conditions for marriage;

The impossibility of aggressive prosecution of infractions by polygamists for religious reasons and those who break the laws, but without religious motivation;

The issue of First Amendment guarantee of religious freedom verses the anti-polygamy laws;

Which laws the State will enforce and which it will not;

Differences among polygamists - independents and those in polygamous religious groups;

The hypocritical public attitude toward polygamy in contrast to that of children who are the result of irresponsible promiscuity;

The prospects of anti-polygamy laws being argued before the Supreme Court;

The 90 page Polygamy Primer prepared by the Attorney General’s office to clarify issues pertaining to modern polygamy in Utah;

Warren Jeffs’ abuses

Warren Jeffs’ distortions of polygamy as practiced by LDS Church members in the 19th century;

Welfare fraud;

Incest;

Women desiring to leave polygamy.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 August 2006 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Which Bible?

mormonmisc — Fri, 30 May 2008 20:02:24 +0000

Which Bible?

The question, Which Bible should we read? is a question many have never considered - many who insist that the Bible is God’s complete, final and infallible word. The fact is that a consensus has never been reached even among mainstream Christianity as to which of the many, many Bibles of Christianity today and throughout Christian history is THE Bible. The history of the Bible is very complex.

The following is but a very small list of aspects related to its history: Scrolls, manuscripts, texts, codex, collections, councils, creeds, disputed books, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, canonization, translations, Septuagint, Law/Prophets/Writings, Samitaritan Penteuch, Latin Vulgate, Masoretic text, Textus Receptus, Marcion, Jerome, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, theological motivations, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi, lost scripture, ancient translations, modern translations, textual criticism.

I briefly discuss a number of topics from this list and give some of my personal reflections and conclusions drawn from many years of personal interest in the question, Which Bible?

Callers and Email

Discussion of:

Joseph Smith’s last Conference sermon: reports of the sermon, compiling, editing and preparation for publication

Literal interpretation of Genesis

Brigham Young’s view of the Genesis account of creation

Adam God Theory

Evolution

Jehovah in the Old Testament

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?

mormonmisc — Sat, 17 May 2008 17:21:06 +0000

Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?

My guest was Martin Tanner. We discussed his debate with Jason Wallace, a pastor who subscribes to the brand of Christianity of John Calvin.

Pastor Wallace was arguing that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, presenting his interpretations of some Biblical passages in support.

Martin Tanner, who is a believing LDS, responded.

Callers participated in our discussion.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Rethinking the Old Testament

mormonmisc — Sat, 10 May 2008 19:02:20 +0000

Rethinking the Old Testament

I discuss a number of points from my study of the Old Testament which have contributed to the formulation of my conclusions regarding what it means to me and my religious tradition.The Old Testament is not a book of history.

It is not a book of Science.

Genesis 30 - the speckled and spotted sheep and goats.

Extreme Views of the Old Testament

It is entirely, word-for-word, God’s word. I find this unbelievable for many reasons.

Joseph Smith explained that some of the Old Testament pertains to us, but much does not.

There has never been anything like universal consensus as to the list of books which belong in the Old Testament. It has never been settled and appears that it never will be.

Discussion with callers on what to believe regarding supernatural claims in the Old Testament and elsewhere in our religious tradition, addressing some specifics such as the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon and the miracles of Jesus.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Facing the Old Testament

mormonmisc — Fri, 02 May 2008 17:01:23 +0000

Facing the Old Testament

I believe Old Testament is an important collection of religious writings in the Judeo/Christian/LDS tradition. The fact that there has been substantial development within the Judeo/Christian/LDS tradition has resulted in substantial neglect of the Old Testament by most LDS and other Christians. The following is a list of points which are so certain that there is not room for reasonable dispute. I discuss these points and briefly explain how they have shaped my approach to the Old Testament. Several participants join with me in this discussion.

1. There is not now, nor has there ever been a consensus as to what belongs in the canon of the Old Testament.

2. Every list or collection of Old Testament books is a selection from a much larger body of ancient Israelite and Jewish writings.

3. The authorship of most of the Old Testament books is unknown.

4. Much of the Old Testament makes no claim to revelation or inspiration.

5. A number of beliefs, ritual, laws and punishments are strange, and bizarre to us.6. Some of the Old Testament religion is illegal in America.

7. Many laws and principles which were to continue forever have been abolished by Christianity.

8. Some aspects of the portrayal of God in the Old Testament are not found in modern Christianity.

9. There is disagreement between a number of Old Testament passages and the findings of modern science.

10. A number of doctrines are not accepted by modern Christianity.

11. There are many differences in Old Testament accounts and beliefs.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 13 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

mormonmisc — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:01:26 +0000

Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

Comments on the new LDS Church Almanac.

Accusation and response that the Church leaders are only interested in their callings in the Church for personal financial gain.

Allegations, prompted by Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the U.S., that he and other Mormons are not Christians, and that his religious beliefs should disqualify him for public office.

Brief article on “The Wrong Jesus and The Wrong Satan” by Bill Forrest.

Discussion with a caller about details of the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I read what purports to be the coroner’s report of June 28, 1844.

Discussion with a caller on Noah’s ark and the question of the historicity of all Biblical detail.

This is the 6 Januray 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

LDS Church Political Policy

mormonmisc — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:20:29 +0000

LDS Church Political Policy

I discuss the Christmas card allegedly sent by Mitt Romney to Republicans in North Carolina which purports to have been financed by the LDS Temple in Boston.A frequent caller attacked Mitt Romney; claimed Brigham Young did not believe in the Constitution; that he came to Utah to escape the U. S.; and that he declared that he did not believe in the Constitution. I responded to each of these points.I read a current statement of the Church’s neutrality on political elections and partisan politics and freedom of LDS, including those holding political office, to vote their conscience.Discussion with a caller on the interpretation of portions of scripture and how the interpretation one may be relevant to the interpretations of others.

Comments on D&C 134. I contrast this section with Old Testament policy.

Joseph Smith’s 1844 statement on religion and government.

Email from an LDS democrat regarding the Chuch political position.

A caller read a statement of Joseph Smith and his comments.

Discussion with a caller about views of the Bible and interpretation of the Old Testament;

Mitt Romney and prevailing biases.

A caller asked about the historicity of the Bible in comparison and contrast to the Book of Mormon.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 30 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Strange Elements of the Old Testament

mormonmisc — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:10:56 +0000

Strange Elements of the Old Testament

I comment on the Ensign article on Joseph Smith’s journals, the Joseph Smith Papers project and the new Priesthood / Relief Society manual for 2008.I received an email asking a question about God sending lying spirits to the prophets to deceive the king. In addressing this issue, I briefly comment on several approaches to the Old Testament.

1. Rejection of the Old Testament by many early Christians.

2. Modern approach of a majority of Christians who ignore all but a few selected passages and stories from the Old Testament.

3. Another approach is that the Old Testament is a collection of ancient religious writings but not the inspired word of God.

Acknowledging the strangeness of the Old Testament is essential to understanding it.

1 Kings 21

There are a number of passages which present seemingly strange Divine characteristics. I list a few:

1 Kings 22:9-23 (causes prophets to lie);

Ezekiel 14:9 (deceives prophets);

Amos 3:6 (the cause of evil in a city);

Ezekiel 20:25-26, 31 (gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice);

Hosea 9:15-16 (hates and curses);

Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (commands and condones slavery);

1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (sends evil spirits to influence men);

Ex 32:14; Deu 28:68; Am 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9, 10; Jer 26:13; 2 Sam 24:16 (changes his mind).

I read and commented on Numbers 5:11-30 - Procedure for determining a wife’s faithfulness.

Callers and Email

1. A frequent caller who paints Mormonism in the blackest fashion. He insists that the only interest of the General Authorities is in collecting money from its members.

2. This caller has written a novel which incorporates much of this author’s personal doctrinal views.

3. A frequent caller strongly criticized my view of the Old Testament.

4. A frequent caller discusses the question of whether God would deceive the prophets and questioning my doubting of the literalness of parts of the Old Testament.

5. A frequent caller condemns me for not believing the flood account literally, but insists that it is appropriate for him to discard to refuse a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation.

6. This caller was applying some wording from the book of Revelation to current events in America’s southern states.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 23 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

God and Omniscience / Priesthood and Succession

mormonmisc — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:05:45 +0000

God and Omniscience

Priesthood and Succession

A number of topics were raised and discussed in this episode:

Discussion of the question of the extent of God’s knowledge, contrasting the views found in the Lectures of Faith and those of a number of Church leaders.
Fundamentalist polygamous groups.
A caller alleged Brigham Young taught that Blacks were neutral in the war in heaven.
A caller argued that the priesthood and keys were to exist outside of the Church.
Comments on the topic of priesthood authority and succession as established by Joseph Smith and endorsed by his successors.
Position of the Church regarding Blacks joining the Church prior to 1965.
Position of the Church regarding Blacks in the early and modern periods.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 16 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

God’s Omniscience: Diversity of Mormon Views

mormonmisc — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:35:28 +0000

God’s Omniscience:

Diversity of Mormon Views

In this episode I discuss several differing views of LDS leaders, including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, B. H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie on the topic of God’s omniscience.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young emphatically declared that the most spiritually advanced in this life will know but little of even the basics of the plan of salvation at the time of their death. From this perspective, they established an LDS position which persists - that we have no carefully worded creed which a person must accept to be LDS. Both of them advocated searching, pondering and speculating upon concepts, even mysteries. This, of course, resulted in a religious climate among the Saints where there would naturally be a diversity of views on even some basic topics, even regarding God and the Godhead.

I discuss the differences between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young on the whether God, or the Gods, progress in knowledge. Their differences resulted in published statements of the First presidency, and the First Presidency and the Twelve, to the Saints and comments in sermons by several General Authorities in the 1860s. More recently, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, in the 1950s and 1960s expressed their views on the subject.

Email Participants (the phone system went down and thus there were no phone participants)

Mormons are so busy chasing after other Gods that they cannot know the one God of the Bible. I comment on this position.
A long email from a frequent participant denounces pursuit of our religious belief through research and study. He claims that we must turn to him; that he will tell us the truths we need to know; and that we are to pray to God, not for further knowledge, but rather, only for confirmation what this self-proclaimed prophet has declared. In my response I wandered off on to the question of, Who is Jehovah in Mormon belief in the 19th century in contrast to belief in the 20th century?
Another email further argues that Mormons do not believe in the God of the Bible and cannot, therefore, be Christians. The God of the Bible is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. I, of course, respond.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 9 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Development of Mormon Thought on the Holy Ghost

mormonmisc — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:43:03 +0000

Development of Mormon Thought

on the Holy Ghost

I trace the development of Mormon thought, from 1829 to the present, on the Holy Ghost. I pursue such questions as:

Is the Holy Ghost a personage?

What is the future of the Holy Ghost?

Was Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost?

Why did the current LDS view of the Holy Ghost take so long to develop?

Regarding the Holy Ghost, I discuss the Book of Mormon and other early sources, specifically Lecture Five in a series of lectures given in 1834, and Joseph Smith’s teachings during the last four years of his life in Nauvoo.

Participants by Phone and Email

I read and responded to an email which asserts that the Bible teaches there is one God expressed in three persons. I read several Biblical passages which draw a clear distinction between God and Jesus and others which refer to the existence of a number of gods.
A caller addressed himself to this topic and we further discussed the question of the deity of Jesus as related to the New Testament.
A caller contributed several views regarding the spirit of man and the workings of the Holy Ghost.
Further discussion with a caller regarding the early LDS views (1830s) of the Father as a spirit in contrast to Joseph Smith’s teaching in Nauvoo (1841-1844) that the Father has resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 2 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Development of Joseph Smith’s Concept of God

mormonmisc — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:38:59 +0000

Development of Joseph Smith’s

Concept of God

Joseph Smith acknowledged that his views were progressive - that is, his views of God differed on a number of points from 1829 to 1844. From a number of sources I have developed the following approximate timeline for the development of Joseph Smith’s views of God.

Jesus is God. 1829-1844
Jesus pre-existed as the Son. 1829-1844
In some way Jesus is the Son and also the Father. 1829-1833
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one. 1829-1844
The Father is a personage of spirit 1829-1835 or 1834-1835
The Holy Ghost is not a personage, but rather the mind of the Father and the Son. 1834-1841
The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit awaiting the opportunity to take upon himself a body of flesh and bones. 1841-1844
The Saints have the potential to become gods and goddesses. 1832-1844
Our God and Father has a God and Father. 1841-1844
The Father went through mortality and has a resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus. 1841-1844
There is an Eternal God of all other Gods. 1838-1841
There is one God above another with no end. 1841-1844
There was a grand council of Gods to plan and create this world. 1839-1844

I discussed the four main points of the King Follett discourse of 7 April 1844.

Participation by Phone and Email

I respond to an email condemning Brigham Young and his view of Adam as God. Did he believe in a different God than the God of the Bible?
Why are there two different trinities in LDS thought: Elohim, Jehovah and the Holy Ghost; and, Elohim, Jehovah and Michael?
Comments on Brigham Young’s position that there would be differences on God if saints ancient and modern where gathered together.
Does not the Book of Mormon present the idea that God could cease to be God?
A caller condemns me for not accepting his views about Brigham Young’s teachings regarding Adam. I explain my preference for Joseph Smith’s view over that of Brigham Young on this point.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 25 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

mormonmisc — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:04:43 +0000

Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

On this talk show I answer a number of questions regarding Brigham Young’s unique beliefs regarding Adam. This has been a controversial topic for more than 100 years. Answers the following questions are included:

What did Brigham Young believe?
To what extent did he teach his views?
Did he consider his authoritative; that is, official Mormon doctrine?
Does his role as president and prophet demand that his views be accepted by LDS?
Did his contemporaries in the Church hierarchy accept his views?
Did his views on Adam differ from those of Joseph Smith?

Callers and Email

Joseph Smith’s view that spirits are eternal and Brigham Young’s view that spirits begin to exist through a spirit birth.
A caller spoke in defense of his view that Adam is God citing some passages and arguments.
Change of one word in the introduction of the Book of Mormon.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 18 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Discussion of God with Martin Tanner

mormonmisc — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:28:21 +0000

Discussion of God With

Martin Tanner

Discussion with my guest Martin Tanner on the following topics:

Trinity

Book of Mormon doctrine

Early Mormon views of God

Diversity and development of concepts of God within Mormonism.

Questions by Email and Phone

What about monotheism in Isaiah and the trinitarianism or tritheism of the Book of Mormon at the same time?

What about God and gender?

Brigham Young’s view of Adam as God vs Evolution vs accounts of creation in Genesis, Moses, Abraham.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?

mormonmisc — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:45:27 +0000

I considered this question from notes I prepared two years ago for a formal debate on the topic with a Calvinist minister. My approach is more as a discussion than a debate due to the fact that four issues must be resolved before we could properly debate the question, “Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?” They are:

1. Which Bible?

2. What is the Biblical concept of Deity?

3. What is the Mormon concept of Deity?

4. Are we referring to the identity of God or to divergent views of God’s attributes and actions?

Callers and Email:

1. The reasoning behind non-LDS Christian arguments that Mormons are not Christians; divergent concepts of salvation.

2. A caller and I disagreed on two main points: That the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers demeans Jesus; and that the belief that Jesus created Satan out of nothing, flawed such that Jesus knew Satan would fall and become the author of evil, makes Jesus the creator, or the one responsible for all evil. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity

mormonmisc — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:44:20 +0000

Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity

In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion.

My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity. Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith.

Callers:

What is monarchianism?

What about Brian Hale’s comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904?

This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

God as a Close Personal Father

mormonmisc — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:31:54 +0000

God as a Close Personal Father

For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, “I am a child of God.”

Jesus encountered a Jewish society wherein the current views of God, the result of several centuries of evolution, placed a giant gulf between God and man. To first century Jews, God was transcendent. In theology this term refers to the degree of difference between God and the physical world and mankind. The higher the concept of transcendence, the greater the gulf between God and man. Many have, and do, believe God’s transcendence is such that, to man, God is beyond all comprehension; completely unknowable; that he is “wholly other;” he is the Creator, and we are the creation.

Jesus eradicated this gulf by declaring a close relationship between God and man unheard of in ancient Israel. Jesus spoke of God as even more anthropomorphic than that found in the most ancient Israelite belief before the several centuries just preceding the Chrisitan era when the concept of a transcendent God developed.

During his ministry Jesus introduced God as his personal Father, and the personal Father of his disciples. His view was not just that God is our personal Father, but that he is our close personal Father to be addressed with a term no Jew would have considered using for God.

Along the way, the early Christian church discarded Jesus’ view and restored the concept of transcendence, even to what may well be the ultimate degree. During Joseph Smith’s efforts to restore primitive Christianity, he re-introduced, with great clarity, the concept taught by Jesus, including a new dimension.

The research of highly respected modern non-Mormon New Testament scholars, and modern translations of the New Testament have provided considerable insight into Jesus’ unique view of man’s relationship to God. I discuss the research published about 50 years ago which uncovered this lost concept of Jesus and startled many modern Christian scholars. I also present a number of striking sources including a number of modern renderings of relevant New Testament passages from some of the modern translations.

Creator / creation relationship between man and God.

Father / son relationship between man and God.

Potential to transcend the position of a creation to be a son with the potential to become like our Father - God.

Jesus’s use of the Aramaic word “Abba” for God, his Father and our Father.

Anthropomorphic concept of God.

Callers and Email:

Is not Book of Mormon theology trinitarian; discussion of different interpretations of the trinity and several Book of Mormon passages.

This caller is moved more by the idea of our relationship to God as a Father than as God as a Creator, like the relationship of a painter to his painting.

More on the theology of God in the Book of Mormon.

How is Christ the Creator.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 21 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Mormon Fundamentalism

mormonmisc — Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:46 +0000

Mormon Fundamentalism

My guest was Brian C. Hales, author of Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism. We discussed this timely, diverse and little known topic. The question is often asked, Who are Mormon fundamentalists and what do they believe. The answer is far more complex than most would think. Hales has brought together a significant body of material to address this question. Many personalities and events have lead to the great diversity which exists among the many factions included by this broad term, “Mormon fundamentalism.” We discussed many points of interest and importance in understanding the history and beliefs of this category within the Mormon tradition.

The beginnings of the Mormon fundamentalist movement.

Is “fundamentalist” an appropriate term for the, so-called Mormon fundamentalists?

The 1890 Woodruff Manifesto

Authority issue, if one man holds the keys, as taught by Joseph Smith, who now holds those keys?

Lorin Wooley claimed that a priesthood organization exists outside of the LDS Church with superior authority.

Authorship of the Manifesto.

Interpretations of the Manifesto: was it a revelation, the result of a revelation or a trick by Wilford Woodruff to deceive the U.S. Government.

Issue of cohabitation after the 1890 Manifesto.

Problems with the claims that the keys had been passed to Lorin Wooley and others in an 1886.

Callers and Email:

Art Bulla called to declare his claim that he is the only one who can authorize plural marriages; that he is the one mighty and strong and the Lord’s anointed and those who do not accept this will be damned. He claimed that he was called to be an apostle in a stake meeting in North Carolina in 1976. He claimed that no LDS President since Wilford Woodruff has been the Lord’s anointed; that the keys were somewhere out in the wilderness from 1890 to 1978; and that he (Art) appointed someone to give him the keys and the Lord’s anointing.

Splintering among the fundamentalist groups due to divergent claims of authority.

There are many independent fundamentalists who do not belong to any of the several fundamentalist groups. They make many divergent claims.

A disciple of Art Bulla called to support him. He claimed that the LDS Church fell into apostasy in 1978, but would not confirm nor deny whether David O. McKay was a true prophet, the Lord’s anointed, holding the highest priesthood keys.

A caller asked why anyone would be interested in all of this history of polygamy.

A caller asked questions regarding the united order and law of consecration. Brian Hales’ sister, a former fundamentalist, sent an email briefly mentioning her experience and point of view.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 14 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Encounter with Exmormon.org

mormonmisc — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:54:38 +0000

An Encounter with Exmormon.org

I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927. I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect.

Some ex-Mormons had published and testified that the endowment included an oath by participants for themselves, not God, to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. I insisted that to come to a reasonable conclusion on this matter, all source material should be gathered, sifted and assessed. My claim that such sources even exist resulted in a remarkable response. The degree of their aggressiveness, their hatred, their rage and fury I found startling and somewhat troubling. Many tragedies, in the past and the present, begin with their type of incendiary words and end in horrific mob action or hate crimes.My policy on my talk show dramatically differs. All are welcome to call or email with a point of view. All views are allowed, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. And, Mormonism may be attacked, defended, or a question may be asked or some point discussed.Callers:

Should the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution allow Mormons to practice their religion; plagarisms in the Book of Mormon; Book of Mormon historicity.

Death, or blood oaths in the endowment ceremony in 1984?

An exmormon claimed that he made an oath of secrecy in 1980 in the temple in which he agreed for his life to be taken if he divulged any temple secrets. I disagreed. He brought up the question of Brigham Young’s involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

This caller questioned me on my position, Do I represent the Church or myself?

Personal Statement: Response to an ExMormon Critic

mormonmisc — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:44:56 +0000

Personal Statement:

Response to an ExMormon Critic

A long time listener sent me a scathing email which he has published on the internet on exmormon.org, a rabidly anti-Mormon board, where I am refused participation. He claimed that I am a “puppet” and apologist for the LDS Church. I responded to his false charge by reviewing the 27 year policy of my talk show with comments on the involvement of LDS leaders in its content. Also, I listed and commented on some of my personal views, including those where I diverge from the Mormon mainstream. This is my candid effort to explain where I believe I fit in Mormonism, specifically expressing my attitude toward the Church.

I read this email and also my written response. The author of the email called in and we discussed and disagreed on a number of his points. We discussed:

My insistence that I defend my views, not the Church Oath of vengeance Blood oaths Mountain Meadows massacre John D. Lee’s denial that Brigham Young ordered the MMM Hoffman’s forged letter of Jonathan Dunham

Other callers:

This caller read some of the posts then being added to the exmormon.org about this discussion with the author of the email.

Steve Benson and Ezra Taft Benson.

Resolving religious issues through physical confrontation.

Comment on the claim of religious leader, Warren Jeffs.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 30 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

John D. Lee Lead Scroll, Another Forgery?

mormonmisc — Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:59:07 +0000

John D. Lee Scroll, Another Forgery?

Steve Mayfield joined me to discuss our recent expedition to Page, Arizona with forensic document expert, George Throckmorton to examine a lead scroll found in January of 2002 in a small 2 room fort built at Lee’s Ferry (named after John D. Lee) on the Colorado River in 1874. The scroll purports to be written by John D. Lee, 11 January 1872, in which he states that Brigham Young gave orders for the Mountain Meadows Massacre which were delivered by Apostle George A. Smith.

We spent the day with the National Parks Ranger, Allen Malmquist, who found the scroll. It is now housed in the National Parks vault/archives at Page. We examined the scroll and other items in the archives for about two hours, and Throckmorton collected some small samples from the scroll to be tested at a chemical labratory. We travelled with him to a number of sites including the Fort and Signature Rock, which has more than 200 signatures of 19th century travellers, including that of John D. Lee, 25 December 1871.

Malmquist discussed with us, in great detail, the history of the area, especially John D. Lee’s involvement, the history of the fort, the ferry, Lee’s Lonely Dell Ranch and many other topics.

We traveled with Malmquist to the building at Lee’s ferry where the scroll was found. He explained, in precise detail, the circumstances of his finding of the scroll and its history to the present.

On this talk show we discussed further investigation of this lead scroll. There are many reasons, physical, historical, provenance, contextual and handwriting, to suspect the scroll is a forgery.

Comments and Questions from Callers and Email:

Prophets are not infallible.

Wide latitude of Divinely approved acts of the prophets found in the Bible.

How was the scroll found?

Charles W. Penrose was the author of the Wilford Woodruff Manifesto of 1890.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 23 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Miscellaneous Topics/Open Forum

mormonmisc — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:16:33 +0000

Miscellaneous Topics/Open Forum

Topics

Preliminary comments on a lead scroll, found in 2002 at Lee’s Ferry on the Colorado river, which purports to be written by John D. Lee, to be discussed in the next episode. It attributes the ultimate order for the Mountain Meadows Massacre to Brigham Young.

The ultimate authority in the LDS Church rests with the body of the Church.

Deseret News editorial by Charles W. Penrose 30 November 1889.

President Joseph F. Smith’s testimony in the Reed Smoot hearings.

B.H. Roberts on two types of disciples.

Callers and Email:

A warning that God’s judgement is coming soon.

Comments on LDS views on the PBS two part documentary, “The Mormons.”

Politics among Mormons in the 19th century.

Allegation that the LDS Church is all about collecting 10% from the members to make the leaders richer.

A non-Mormon woman responds to this rabid anti-Mormon caller.

Book of Abraham issue. Various views on the differences between Egyptologists interpretive translation and that of Joseph Smith.

Question about the existence, location and authority of an 1886 revelation to John Taylor.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 16 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Research Notes

mormonmisc — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:40:29 +0000

Research Notes

I have a large collection of miscellaneous quotations, sources, references and notes which I have collected on a variety of subjects while involved in specific research projects. From time to time, I bring some of these to my talk show. In this one I presented the following six:

1. An allegation that Mormons murdered Lilburn Boggs, ex-Governor of Missouri, while he was on his way to California.

2. Peter H. Burnett, who was one of Joseph Smith’s attorneys and the first governor of California, wrote his impression of Joseph Smith.

3. John Taylor on truth and science. He taught that an appropriate pursuit of truth by Mormons is to set aside preconceived notions and bias and to search for truth from all possible sources, including the sciences.

4. Orson Pratt’s 1846 sermon, found in a journal entry of Norton Jacob, comments on the dating of creation.

5. Brigham Young speaks of his and Joseph Smith’s views on the resurrection as matters of individual belief. He endorsed individual speculation and belief, but not the assertion that this is the belief of the Church.

6. 21 January 1861 Wilford Woodruff’s synopsis of Brigham Young’s sermon in which he speculates on the stature, in the resurrection, of those who died in infancy.

Callers and email:

All Mormons are liars, arrogant and do not believe in the Constitution and should not be protected by the first amendment.

Follow up from my discussion with Blake Ostler. Is there an ultimate head God, or is there an infinite order of Gods one above another?

Email from an evangelical Christian denouncing me and Mormonism.

Through the power of God, did the sun stand still for Joshua to allow him time to complete his attack?

Speculation regarding details of the resurrection.

Manifesto, revelation to John Taylor, revelation extending priesthood to the blacks, one mighty and strong.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 9 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

History with an LDS Historian

mormonmisc — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:28:36 +0000

History With an

LDS Historian

I was very pleased to have Ronald Barney as my guest. He is a professional historian who has been employed in the LDS Historical Department for the past 30 years. He has published widely on Mormon topics including an award winning book, The Mormon Vanguard Brigade of 1847: Norton Jacob’s Record. He is also working on the extensive multi-volume work, the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

Topics of Discussion

Joseph Smith Papers Project - scope, problems and projected publication.

Udney Hay Jacobs - author of “The Peace Maker,” an essay on marriage, including the idea that the Old Testament form of marriage, including plural marriage, should be reinstated. It was published at Nauvoo by the Times and Seasons press before he joined the LDS Church. This has been the subject of some controversy as to its author. It has been claimed that Joseph Smith authored this or collaborated in the content.

Norton Jacobs, son of Udney, joined the LDS Church. He kept a fine journal. Ron has edited this diary, adding much by way of footnotes. It is a very fine publication covering part of the Nauvoo period and the first company of Saints to travel to Salt Lake Valley in 1847.

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith - letters, diaries articles and the Liberty Jail letter.

From Callers and Email

Where was the Church organized, Fayette or Manchester?

What is the Kirtland Revelations Book?

The Joseph Smith translation of the Bible.

The DVD publication by the Church of over 400,000 pages of documents from its manuscript collection, including the entire Joseph Smith collection.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 9 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Spalding Theory of Book of Mormon Authorship

mormonmisc — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:45:24 +0000

The Spalding Theory of Book of Mormon

Authorship

My guests, Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis and Arthur Vanick, are authors of Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? The Spalding Enigma. The authors argue for the view that Solomon Spalding, who died in 1816 wrote two manuscripts about the inhabitants of ancient America, one from 1809 to 1812 and another from c.1812 to c.1814.

The second was acquired by Sidney Rigdon from a printing office in Pittsburg, where he was allegedly working, and then spent some 18 months meeting with Joseph Smith in Palmyra 1827-1829 where religious material was added to Spaldings story/history and published as the Book of Mormon. This has been the most popular theory among non-Mormons throughout most of Mormon history. For about the last 70 years, the theory has been discarded by most, including a number of prominent anti-Mormon advocates. This book is an attempt to resurrect the theory.

I presented some of many points which I think demonstrate to the rational mind that the theory is bogus. The authors countered with expanations and arguments which they think establish beyond doubt that Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon.The following synopsis was written just following this radio discussion.

Mr. Hale said he was skeptical of reminiscences provided by persons as late as 50 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. He stated that the Spalding/Rigdon theory is entirely based upon alleged memories. There are no pre-1830 sources which described Solomon Spalding’s literary production or Sidney Rigdon’s acquaintance with the Joseph Smith, Sr. family living in western New York. Mr. Hale said that testimony of early neighbors of the Smith family should have included specific points later brought up by Lorenzo Saunders, if those points were common knowledge. The fact that Howe did not include statements that the Smiths’ neighbors knew of Rigdon’s frequent visits from 1827-1830 or rumors of Rigdon impregnating Catherine Smith seems to devastate the credibility of Saunders alleged memories on this particular point. Mr. Hale said he did not believe that such a story was in circulation at an early date. Mr. Hale gave three reasons for finding Bennett’s 1831 article unbelieveable. Bennett’s inability to provide the name of a visitor from Ohio beyond “Henry Rangdon or Ringdon or some such word” is inconsistent with Bennett’s claim that he was privy to Rangdon’s suggestion that the Smith’s turn their “their digging concern into a religious plot.” He did not know his name, but did know of his secret suggestion to the Smiths.

Bennett, six times, called this man an “ex-preacher” or “ex-parson” from Ohio, during a time when substantial evidence establishes that Sidney Rigdon was not only an extremely active preacher, establishing nine new congregations in 1828, but was, in fact, the most famous preacher in northern Ohio. Bennett, or some unamed source, seems to have purloined a suggestion already circulating that “the first idea of a ‘Book’ was doubtless suggested to the Smiths by one Walters, a juggling fortune-teller” replacing Walters with Rangdon/Ringdon/Rigdon.

Further, Bennett asserts that this “Ohio man” was so “famous” for his “particular felicity in finding out the spots of ground where money is hid,” and who had “much experience in money digging” that his fame had found its way 200 miles from Ohio to upstate New York. When Rigdon became a Mormon in December 1830, he was vigorously opposed by Campbell, Scott, Bentley (his brother-in-law), along with other mininsters, including 3 cousins and another brother-in-law who had all become Disciple Ministers. However, none of these, nor others who knew Rigdon well, even in their opposition, suggested any knowledge of Rigdon’s money digging fame, which Bennett alleged stretched to up-state New York.

Mr. Hale noted that in November and December of 1833 Hurlbut interviewed or contacted at least 83 of Joseph Smith’s neighbors, and Howe published 23 of their statements. None indicate any knowledge of Sidney Rigdon’s presence in the neighborhood in 1827-1830. Mr. Hale finds it inconceiveable that, given Howe’s interest in connecting Sidney Rigdon with the production of the Book of Mormon, he would not have published such statements if he had such. Further, the alleged memories of Saunder’s, Gilbert, Chase, Lillie, Anderick and Tucker, 40 to 60 years later claim many neighbors knew of frequent visits by Sidney Rigdon to the Smiths from 1827-1830, some claiming to have been informed by the Smiths themselves and even alleging a “story was around the neighborhood that Catherine Smith was pregnant by Rigdon.” Yet, none of 83 Smith neighbors provide any recollection of such in 1833. It seems obvious that the late alleged recollections rather reflect knowledge of developing myths to which they added their own embellishments. Mr. Hale said that he believed that Solomon Spalding only wrote one fictional story about ancient America. There were some striking, but superficial, similarities. Spalding claims that while walking near the Conneaught River, he noticed a flat stone. He raised the stone to find an artificial cave in which he found a box. Upon opening the box he found an ancient record. He translated only a portion of the record. Spalding presented himself not as the author, but as the translator of a manuscript written by a man, who with others, came to America by boat, long before Columbus. This manuscript tells of the customs, government, religion and the wars of ancient American nations now extinct. It is filled with strange names of people and places. When some Spalding neighbors were introduced to the Book of Mormon, it was suggested that it sounded like the Spalding story “Manuscript Found” which they had heard or read 20-25 years earlier. Their introduction to the Book of Mormon resulted in considerable embellishment and addition to their naturally faded memory resulting in the insertion of BoM-specific names and narrative information into their public statements. There are no known earlier statements or descriptions of a Spalding manuscript with any specific Book of Mormon names or details.

Mr. Hale argued that Solomon Spalding, according to the authors’ theory (p. 27) produced a second fictional story regarding the ancient inhabitants of the Americas in Pittsburg 1812-1814. Following Hurlbut’s retrieval of Spalding’s Roman story with parallels to the Book of Mormon too superficial to argue for some connection, a new claim was made - two stories by Spalding on the subject of pre-Columbus America. The new claim, not supported by the 8 original statements, alleged that Spalding altered his first plan of writing and commenced writing a Ten Lost Tribes story. According to this new scenario, the Roman Story was first and the Ten Tribes story second. A beginning draft of an unrelated letter in the Roman story on page 132 of the 171 page manuscript acknowledges the receipt of 2 letters “jun 1812.” This establishes that the last 35 pages of the Roman manuscript were written after June 1812. Spalding moved to Pittsburg four months later in October 1812. This supports the authors’ dating of the Ten Tribes manuscript to 1812-1814, if such were ever written — How, then, could Oliver Smith testify that he had read BoM-specific information in a Spalding MS as early as 1809, when the Spalding manuscript with BoM-specific information was not written until 1812-1814 in Pittsburg?

Mr. Hale argued that since 1833 statements for the claims of Spalding authorship state that the lost “Ten Tribes” began a journey from Jerusalem to the New World, that the claims were unbelieveable — that Spalding would never have brought the ten tribes forth from Jerusalem. Before being carried away to Assyria, never again to return, they were the Northern Kingdom and were never residents of Jerusalem. Spalding had studied divinity at Dartmouth College and was a licensed Congregational minister for 8-10 years. He certainly would not have defied the common knowledge among even amateur Bible students that the lost Ten Tribes, or a small group of them, would have begun their journey to America from Jerusalem which had never been their place of residence. Further, the Book of Mormon specifically declares that the Ten Tribes were elsewhere. What seems obvious is that the 8 Spalding neighbors were working in reverse. A number of early 1830 newspapers reported the common false perception that the Book Mormon was about the Ten Tribes or their descendants in America. Operating from this assumption demanded that Spalding’s neighbors, to establish a precise parallel, ascribe to Spalding’s story the common false perception that the Book of Mormon was about the Ten Tribes coming to America from Jerusalem. They presumably looked at the first few pages of the Book of Mormon where they would have encountered Lehi, Nephi, Moroni and Laban. The second sentence of the first page of the 1830 Book of Mormon identifies Lehi’s place of departure as Jerusalem. Their knowing, or unknowing, amalgation of these facts and perceptions seems to be the more likely source of their allege memories.

Mr. Hale doubted Aron Wright’s ability to identify the Roman manuscript shown to him by Hurlbut based upon the handwriting, having seen Spalding’s handwriting more than 20 years earlier. Modern investigators are on record as disagreeing over which old specimens of handwriting can actually be traced back to Spalding’s pen. Hale, however, does believe the manuscript shown to Wright was an authentic Spalding in his handwriting. [I was sidetracked on this point. It is of nominal significance.]

Mr. Hale said that the allegation that the title is “Manuscript Story–Conneaut Creek” is more probably someone’s description than Spalding’s chosen title. This line is on a sheet of paper in which the manuscript was wrapped. None of the handwriting on the wrapper was Spalding’s. Mr. Hale observed this fact based upon his comparison of the faint, but unmistakable, style of the 2 penciled “Cs” in “Manuscript Story–Conneaut Creek” on the wrapper, with the remarkably different style of capital “Cs” written by Spalding throughout his manuscript. The authors’ claim (p. 81) that “the writing on the wrapper gives every appearance of being Solomon Spalding’s own” is clearly wrong. From the first chapter’s description of Spalding’s finding of the manuscript by prying up a stone, going into a cave, opening a box and finding 28 sheets of parchment which he translated from Latin, the title, “Manuscript Found,” would certainly be fitting and the penciled line is not relevant. Mr. Hale discounted Mrs. Eichbaum’s reminiscence, because it was first written down at a late date (1879) and because Howe’s book quotes a Mr. Patterson as saying he did not know about Spalding’s MS. The discussion did include an 1842 Robert Patterson statement in Samuel Williams’ pamphlet, nor the later reminiscence provided by Elder William Small. Mr. Hale was certain that Sidney Rigdon visited Pittsburgh as a young man. His response to the appearance of Rigdon’s name in published Pittsburgh letter lists, was that the printing of such a list showed that the recipient had NOT picked up any such letters waiting for him — thus tending to demonstrate that he had NOT frequented the Pittsburgh Post Office to the extent Eichbaum claimed in her statement.

Mr. Hale doubts the value of Arthur B. Deming’s published statements because the witnesses were very old, and separated from the events by some sixty years and Deming offered to pay contributors to his newspaper for their submission of negative statements. Mr. Hale read Deming’s offer in his first issue of Naked Truths about Mormonism to pay a “fair price” for negative material “regarding the origin and early history of Mormonism” “if used.” It seems impossible not to find suspect this form of alleged memory, often contradictory and frequently compound hearsay.

Theology With Blake Ostler

mormonmisc — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:11:52 +0000

Theology With Blake Ostler

Blake has authored a number of papers and articles and currently has completed two volumes of his multi-volume set, Exploring Mormon Thought.

Joseph Smith’s basic teaching that Mormons are open to receiving all truth; that Mormonism is progressive, looking for development of its beliefs in a variety of ways including thought, pondering and continued revelation, opens the path for the consideration of various aspects and angles beyond the parameters of basic Mormon doctrine.

Joseph Smith opposed the idea of a creed because it sets up stakes beyond which a person is not to think. Instead he encouraged LDS to seek deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.

We discussed our differences in our interpretations of Joseph Smith’s views as found in D&C 121:28-32 and two discourses: 7 April 1844 and 16 June 1844. Blake concludes that Joseph Smith believed that there is one Eternal God of all other gods. I conclude that, by 1844, Joseph Smith believed that there is an infinite patriarchy of Gods - that there is no God who does not have a Father and God.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

Is not the Articles of Faith a creed, if not why?

What is the status of progressive Mormonism and Mormon neo-orthodoxy?

What about W.W. Phelps hymn “If you could hie to Kolob”?

What is a creed?

By Joseph Smith’s declaration that Jesus followed in the footsteps of his Father, does he mean that the Father was the Savior of the world upon which he went through mortality? Blake is trying to harmonize JS’s Nauvoo teachings on plurality of gods with his 1835 Book of Abraham council of gods. According to JS’s logic if there was a first God, there would have to be a last. What about the Adam God doctrine of Brigham Young?

God does not have a navel.

The Adam God theory is basic gospel truth and those who reject it will be damned.

Does God the Father have a Father?

Who was God the Father’s Father when he went through mortality?

Allegation that Joseph Smith believed the Adam God theory.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 26 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Two Month Nauvoo Temple Operation

mormonmisc — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 15:12:48 +0000

Two Month Nauvoo Temple Operation

I cover some of the events, ordinances, sermons, and happenings in the Nauvoo Temple during its short term of operation from 11 December 1845 to 8 February 1846. A major source for my comments is the valuable book: The Nauvoo Endowment Companies, edited by Gary Bergera and Devery Anderson, compiled primarily from Nauvoo Temple records and diaries. I discuss:

Laying of the cornerstones of the Temple

Extensive detailed records

The ordinances - baptism for the dead, washings, anointings, washing and anointing for health, washing of feet, endowments, second anointing, marriage, sealings (living, dead, children), adoptions, ordinations (elder, seventy, high priest), prayer circles

Types of marriages/sealings performed in the temple - for time and eternity; for time; for eternity; monogamous for time-plural for eternity; plural for time-monogamous for eternity; plural for time and eternity; non-sexual for time

Wedding ceremonies, celebration and recreation in the temple

Dancing in the temple unto the Lord - Brigham Young’s explanation and defense

Music in the temple

Secrecy directives

Prominent themes of the temple prayers

Actors in the Endowment drama

First Temple expose

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

A strong condemnation of my motives and my response.

Priesthood is outside of the Church.

Is the Book of Mormon fact or fiction?

Three Book of Mormon doctrines which are wrong.

The Church fell into apostasy in 1978 in giving the Blacks the priesthood, and a former 70 now is the Lord’s Anointed.

The fact that Pres. Kimball received a revelation to extend the priesthood to the Blacks means there must have been a revelation to withhold the priesthood from the Blacks.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 19 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

My Sunstone Experience

mormonmisc — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:30:45 +0000

My Sunstone Experience

At a session at the Sunstone Symposium three panelists discussed the need for a more aggressive approach to some of the more difficult Mormon topics. The idea they posed was that it would be better for Mormons to be introduced to controversial topics from within the Church rather than by Mormonism’s critics.

I tell my experience of discussing the Trinity with a young Christian Evangelical, following my participation in a session on the doctrine of God in the Book of Mormon.

I comment on the paper I presented at Sunstone on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Oath of Vengeance and read an outrageous charge from the new book September Dawn, which is also a movie scheduled to be released the end of August.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

John Krakauer’s best selling book Evolution - several different views Can a divorced man become a bishop? Speculation on replacement of Pres. Hinckley’s counsellor, Pres. Faust Succession claims following the death of Joseph Smith Will Bagley’s response to my Sunstone paper on the Oath of Vengeance Are Church manuals going to be more scholarly? Adam God theory Joseph Smith’s testimony

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 12 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

The Romneys; Mormon Splinter Groups

mormonmisc — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:04:56 +0000

The Romneys; Mormon Splinter Groups

My guest is Newell Bringhurst past president of the Mormon History Association, the John Whitmer Historical Association and author of many works on diverse areas of Mormon history.Bringhurst has written a paper comparing the Presidential campaigns of George Romney (1968) and his son Mitt Romney (2008).Mitt has considered some of the problems and mistakes of his father. George Romney was the front-runner for a time as the Republican candidate.

Only Mormon issue he faced was LDS policy of denying priesthood to the Blacks.

Citizenship issue was raised because he was born in Mexico.

His grandfather went to Mexico to avoid polygamy prosecution, but his parents were both American citizens.

Brainwashing statement

Lessons Mitt learned from his father’s compaign

Care in rhetoric Name recognition

Listing of other Mormon Presidential candidates.

Joseph Smith Parley Christensen George Romney Morris Udall Bo Grits Eldridge Cleaver (before he converted to Mormonism) Orrin Hatch Ezra Taft Benson’s interest in Vice President

Mormon Splinter Groups. Bringhurst is editing a book to be published in September 2007 on the Mormon splinter groups. There have been some 400 splinter groups which have broken off from the Mormon Church; some 60 groups are active currently. There have been many claims of revelation and priesthood succession outside of the LDS Church. A list of such would include: Sidney Rigdon, William Law, David Whitmer, Lyman Wight, Wycam Clark, Noah Rogers and a number of modern Mormon Fundamentalist groups

Topics from Callers

Mormon persecution in Missouri - politics and gathering Diversity among Fundamentalist Mormons Claims of priesthood outside of the Church Apostasy of the LDS Church by giving the Blacks the Priesthood Importance of consensus within the Church

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 5 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Sunstone: Interview with Dan Wotherspoon

mormonmisc — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:37:34 +0000

Sunstone: Interview with Dan Wotherspoon

My guest was Dan Wotherspoon, executive director and editor of Sunstone Magazine, with a doctorate in theology and philosopy of religion. We discussed the upcoming Sunstone Symposium, including some of the 95 sessions, the mission and future of Sunstone and a number of topics raised by callers.

Changes in Sunstone announced with John Dehlin as the new executive director, taking over fundraising and the website.

28th Salt Lake Symposium 8-11 August 2007 - Some sessions

Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Oath of Vengeance Mitt Romney papers and panel discussion Mormon splinter groups Grant McMurray former prophet/president of the Community of Christ Church (formerly the RLDS Church) Helen Whitney, producer of the PBS documentary “The Mormons” is presenting at a special session Sunstone Mission: Open Forum of Thought, “Faith Seeking Understanding.”

Sunstone finances.

Audio files of the 2007 Symposium will be available in mp3 format on sunstoneonline.com within about 2 weeks after the Symposium.

Comments on the future impressive additions and development of the website.

Multiple sides of Mormon issues are welcomed at Sunstone.

Topics Raised by Callers:

Mitt Romney’s candidacy What is Dialogue Journal Joseph Smith translation of the Bible King James Translations and other versions What is the Official Church position on Sunstone? What about those born into bad circumstances? The tribe of Judah Is there policy against BYU professors participating at Sunstone? Vision of the redemption of the dead D&C 138:50-51 on resurrection. A criticism that those at Sunstone prefer the past prophets and authorities over the current Prophet.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 29 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Polygamy Discussion with Author, Carmon Hardy

mormonmisc — Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:58:19 +0000

Polygamy Discussion with Author, Carmon Hardy My guest was B. Carmon Hardy, author of Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy, Its origin, practice, and demise. His book is a collection of important documents on polygamy throughout its history in 19th century Mormonism. Hardy includes his comments and footnotes throughout. It is an excellent work which I highly recommend.

We discussed a number of the controversial issues regarding the Mormon practice of polygamy in the 19th century, including:

the origin;

Book of Mormon references;

why there is almost no evidence that Joseph Smith had children by any wife but Emma;

why some women who were already married were sealed to Joseph Smith;

the 1879 Supreme Court ruling;

early denials of the practice;

the 1852 public announcement of the practice and subsequent defense of the principle, etc.

A number of listeners participated by phone and email.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 22 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

King Follett Discourse: Textual History and Controversy

mormonmisc — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:12:48 +0000

King Follett Discourse: Textual History and Controversy

On 7 April 1844 Joseph Smith spoke to the largest audience of Saints assembled during his lifetime. He brought together concepts he had touched upon for several years into a very important doctrinal address. It was then, and has continued throughout Mormon history, to be a controversial declaration of his views about how God came to be God and His intent for the progression of men to become gods. Joseph Smith explained that there is much to know in regard to salvation and exaltation which will not be known until long after we leave this life, but that there is much to be known in this life by those Saints inclined to seek.

Several doctrinal points in the discourse have lead some, over the past 130 years, to question or dispute the accuracy of the the published report of this discourse. They are:

1. The plurality of Gods 2. The stature in the resurrection of those who die in infancy 3. The concept that all mankind existed as intelligences before becoming spirits.

I present the findings from my research of a number of unpublished sources in the LDS Archives to address these arguments.

I discuss the four reports which were taken, by whom and how they were amalgamated to result in the standard version published during the past 100 years.

I include a six column parallel of these three sections of the discourse which have been the focus of these arguments. Four columns give the text from the four who wrote reports of the discourse, one column gives the first published version of 1844, authorized by the Quorum of the Twelve, and the other column gives the version prepared in 1855, examined and approved by Brigham Young for inclusion in the History of the Church - the one which has been published during the past 100 years.

Several, through phone calls and email, participated with questions and comments on the King Follett discourse, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, criticism of other callers.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 15 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes. The article I used in this episode is now available in my eStore

To make a comment, click on “comment” below.

Open Forum

mormonmisc — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:53:43 +0000

Open Forum

This episode was an open forum. I began by responding to an email from the last program on the Oath of Vengeance. The author of the email contended that Wilford Woodruff could not be trusted in his statement about the endowment ceremony because he had not been forthright regarding some plural marriages following the Manifesto. I responded by applying common sense and common experience to the question of credibility, reading two comments by Joseph Smith.

The first caller lead me into a discussion of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

The second caller is the disciple of Art Bulla. He defended Bulla’s previous challenge for me to meet him for a fist fight, claiming Bulla was acting, in this challenge, under God’s direction. Bulla claims to be God’s legitimate sole priesthood leader. He was followed by Art Bulla who responded.

A caller discussed with me the propensity of humans to keep many things secret.

Several other callers pursued various topics, some salient others ridiculous.

It was a fun program for me, but I would understand those who found portions of the discussion too outrageous to be worthwhile. This is the nature of open talk radio, it is unpredictable and can only be controlled by imposing strong censorship.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 1 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “comment” below.

The Alleged Oath of Vengeance

mormonmisc — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:38:07 +0000

The Alleged Oath of Vengeance Beginning in 1847 the allegation was made that the Saints were required in the endowment ceremony in the Nauvoo Temple to take an oath to “use our influence to murder this nation” to avenge “for their killing the Prophet Joseph.”A number of ex-Mormons wrote addition anti-Mormon exposes making similar claims regarding the ceremony performed in the Endowment House in Salt Lake City from 1855-1889. In sworn testimony in hearings in 1889, 1904-1906 a number of Mormons testified that no such Oath existed.They were joined by several ex-Mormons who also denied its existence. Other ex-Mormons testified that it was included in the endowment ceremony.

Perhaps, for a number of reasons, the one most qualified to speak on the matter was Wilford Woodruff. As President of the Church in 1889 he gave an explanation that “avenging” and “prophets” were mentioned in the endowment ceremony in an instruction given to the Saints to pray for God to avenge the murder of prophets and saints. He stated that this was included in the endowment ceremony by Joseph Smith in 1842 based upon Revelation 6:9-10 and this had not been changed. He maintained that Joseph and Hyrum were not mentioned in the ceremony nor was the American Nation considered responsible for the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum and, therefore, was not specifically identified as the object of vengeance.

From his explanation it would follow that those claiming the existence of an Oath of Vengeance for the Mormons to resort to murder to avenge the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum upon the American Nation was an extreme twisting of the endowment ceremony.

Recently, several authors and historians have claimed that this alleged Oath of Vengeance played a major role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I discuss this topic presenting some of my research for a paper 20 years ago. I plan to make available some of my sources and reasoning in an article to be available in my eStore this coming week.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “comment” below.

Bits and Pieces

mormonmisc — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:22:26 +0000

Bits and Pieces

I presented follow-up comments on several recent episodes:

Am I a Darwinist as frequently alleged by a caller, Art Bulla, who claims to be the Lord’s Anointed, the One Mighty and Strong?

A caller on 17 June made absurd allegations about the origin of the text of the Book of Abraham. I asked for his sources. He gave two. I reported on my findings after checking out his claimed sources.

I made a follow-up comment on two recent episodes covering Joseph Smith’s accounts of the First Vision.

I mentioned a very good brief summary article on Mountain Meadows Massacre by noted historian, Rick Turley, to appear in the Church’s September issue of the Ensign. The Church has pre-released this article and has posted it on its website, http://lds.org/. I highly recommend it.

I commented briefly on the alleged Oath of Vengeance. It has been claimed by several recent authors that a primary motive for the Mountain Meadows Massacre was to fulfill an oath taken by Mormons in the temple endowment ceremony to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum through acts of murder. I did not present the material I had prepared for this episode, but have decided to dedicate a program in the next several weeks to this topic.

Callers frequently ask or comment on my views regarding the Book of Mormon historicity issue. I read a brief summary of my view.

Several callers participated. One, Art Bulla, called in making a false allegation about my procedure. As I tried to respond, he refused to allow it by interrupting and over-talking me with a name-calling attack and a challenge to a fist fight. I assume all this display is intended to demonstrate that he is the Lord’s Annointed - the One Mighty and Strong. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDSOfficial website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 24 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world.

Check the right Sidebar for a Catalog of related Articles now available

To make a comment, click on the “Comment” button below

Approaches to the Old Testament

mormonmisc — Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:45:15 +0000

Approaches to the

Old Testament

My guest was Val D. Greenwood, author of How Often Would I Have Gathered You: Stories from the Old Testament and Related Sources for Latter-day Saints. Val re-tells 229 Old Testament stories placing them in chronological order. He includes notes and sources specifically directed to an LDS audience. His re-telling is to simplify and clarify. Any such approach inevitably includes the author’s interpretation.

We discussed some of the differences in our two approachs to the Old Testament.

Are such stories as the creation, Job, Jonah and others to be taken literally?

Decisions must be made regarding theological positions which are contradictory within the Old Testament, or which are contradicted by the New Testament or by modern Mormon sources. We looked specifically at the cause of David’s sin in 2 Samuel 24 in contrast to 1 Chronicles 21 and the wager between God and Satan over the degree of Job’s faithfulness.

Why use the King James Version which is much more difficult to understand in contrast to modern English Bibles, several of which, among other points, focus on simplicity and clarity for modern readers?

Live callers and email were included in our discussion.

For those interested in Greenwood’s book, go to his website: http://newviewoldtestament.com/

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 17 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to www.k-talk.com Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world.

Mountain Meadows Massacre 2, the Aftermath

mormonmisc — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:26:05 +0000

Mountain Meadows Massacre 2: The Aftermath

In this episode I continued discussion of the Mountain Meadows Massacre I began last week with author, Will Bagley. I discussed the list of proposed motives for the Massacre.

I also referred to two articles on the subject published in the LDS Church News 2 June 2007 reporting the conclusions of Rick Turley, one of three professional historians writing a book to be published by Oxford University Press sometime in the next year.

By phone, my guest Bob Crockett joined me and addressed the aftermath of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He has written a lengthy review of Will Bagley’s book Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows. His review was published in FARMS Review 15/2 (2003): 199–254. We discussed the two trials of John D. Lee, who was tried, convicted and executed for his role in the Massacre. There are a number of issues associated with this process: the hung jury in the first trial, the paneling of the jury for the second trial, allegations that the prosecuting attorney had made an illegal deal with the Church to end further prosecution if it would help him convict Lee, why others were not prosecuted, why the process took so long, legal disputes and others.

Crockett presented a number of sources which have been unknown to, or overlooked by other authors; sources which help to answer several important questions.

Several calls and email were included in the discussion.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDSOfficial website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblogThis is the 10 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, the first talk show of its 28th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to www.k-talk.com Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. This is the chance for your voice will be heard around the world.

Mountain Meadows Massacre 1

mormonmisc — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:30:35 +0000

Mountain Meadows Massacre 1

My guest was Will Bagley, independent historian and columnist. His book, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, covers a period of Mormon history, 1856-1858, laden with controversy: the Reformation, blood atonement, Utah War, murder of Parley Pratt, the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the trials and execution of John D. Lee (1874-1877). Historians and students are divided on some of the main issues and events of this era and many of the lesser ones. His book adds to the controversy. We discussed Bagley’s view that Brigham Young directly ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre as an act of vengeance precipitated by the murder of Parley Pratt.

Bagley contends that Mormons were committed by a sacred oath in the temple ceremony - the alleged “oath of vengeance” - to avenge the blood of the prophets Joseph and Hyrum murdered in 1844, to which list would have been added the beloved Apostle, Parley Pratt, murdered in May 1857 in Arkansas.

I reviewed some of the substantial evidence which demonstrates that there was no “oath of vengeance” administered in the temple ceremony, that this was a tale manufactured and spread by bitter ex-Mormons. Rather, the long established LDS position left all vengeance in the hands of the Lord. In the lecture portion of the ceremony, the Saints were instructed to pray that God avenge the blood of the prophets, based on Revelation 6:9-10, rather than that the Saints seek vengeance.

We discussed several other points, but did not cover the subject sufficiently. I had hoped to have Bagley back on my next Talk Show to pursue this further, but he is too busy. I will probably have him back in the future, but I have decided to continue the subject without him next Sunday to summarize this historical event and consider some of the many controversial points.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 3 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 27th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to www.k-talk.com Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world.

First Vision Accounts 2

mormonmisc — Thu, 31 May 2007 17:36:30 +0000

First Vision Accounts 2

I continued the subject from last week, specifically assessing the argument that Joseph Smith changed his story of the First Vision to fit his developing view of the Godhead.This argument claims that in 1832, the year of the first written account, Joseph Smith believed that there is only one person who is God, who manifests himself as the Father at times, and as the Son at other times. Jesus is thus, the Father and the Son, and so according to his 1832 theology, there is only one Divine person, not two. This argument insists that his theology evolved to a belief in two Divine beings.As a result, subsequent accounts of his First Vision fit this new view of God and nine of the other ten accounts, from 1832-1844 declare the appearance of two persons.I presented and discussed several relevant sources dating to 1830-1832 which have been overlooked by those who promote this view. These sources support the position that, prior to 1832, Joseph Smith believed that God has appeared on occasion, that He appears to introduce his Son and that Jesus has a Father who is a separate, distinct personage, concepts consistent with that found in his 1838 account, the one printed in the Pearl of Great Price.Several listeners joined in the discussion, while others took the discussion down another path.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 27 May 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 27th year.