Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

Which Bible?

The question, Which Bible should we read? is a question many have never considered - many who insist that the Bible is God’s complete, final and infallible word. The fact is that a consensus has never been reached even among mainstream Christianity as to which of the many, many Bibles of Christianity today and throughout Christian history is THE Bible. The history of the Bible is very complex.

The following is but a very small list of aspects related to its history: Scrolls, manuscripts, texts, codex, collections, councils, creeds, disputed books, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, canonization, translations, Septuagint, Law/Prophets/Writings, Samitaritan Penteuch, Latin Vulgate, Masoretic text, Textus Receptus, Marcion, Jerome, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, theological motivations, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi, lost scripture, ancient translations, modern translations, textual criticism.

I briefly discuss a number of topics from this list and give some of my personal reflections and conclusions drawn from many years of personal interest in the question, Which Bible?

Callers and Email

Discussion of:

Joseph Smith’s last Conference sermon: reports of the sermon, compiling, editing and preparation for publication

Literal interpretation of Genesis

Brigham Young’s view of the Genesis account of creation

Adam God Theory

Evolution

Jehovah in the Old Testament

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Rethinking the Old Testament

I discuss a number of points from my study of the Old Testament which have contributed to the formulation of my conclusions regarding what it means to me and my religious tradition.The Old Testament is not a book of history.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 20 January 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Facing the Old Testament

I believe Old Testament is an important collection of religious writings in the Judeo/Christian/LDS tradition. The fact that there has been substantial development within the Judeo/Christian/LDS tradition has resulted in substantial neglect of the Old Testament by most LDS and other Christians. The following is a list of points which are so certain that there is not room for reasonable dispute. I discuss these points and briefly explain how they have shaped my approach to the Old Testament. Several participants join with me in this discussion.

1. There is not now, nor has there ever been a consensus as to what belongs in the canon of the Old Testament.

2. Every list or collection of Old Testament books is a selection from a much larger body of ancient Israelite and Jewish writings.

3. The authorship of most of the Old Testament books is unknown.

4. Much of the Old Testament makes no claim to revelation or inspiration.

5. A number of beliefs, ritual, laws and punishments are strange, and bizarre to us.6. Some of the Old Testament religion is illegal in America.

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Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

Comments on the new LDS Church Almanac.

Accusation and response that the Church leaders are only interested in their callings in the Church for personal financial gain.

Allegations, prompted by Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the U.S., that he and other Mormons are not Christians, and that his religious beliefs should disqualify him for public office.

Brief article on “The Wrong Jesus and The Wrong Satan” by Bill Forrest.

Discussion with a caller about details of the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I read what purports to be the coroner’s report of June 28, 1844.

Discussion with a caller on Noah’s ark and the question of the historicity of all Biblical detail.

This is the 6 Januray 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Strange Elements of the Old Testament

I comment on the Ensign article on Joseph Smith’s journals, the Joseph Smith Papers project and the new Priesthood / Relief Society manual for 2008.I received an email asking a question about God sending lying spirits to the prophets to deceive the king. In addressing this issue, I briefly comment on several approaches to the Old Testament.

1. Rejection of the Old Testament by many early Christians.

2. Modern approach of a majority of Christians who ignore all but a few selected passages and stories from the Old Testament.

3. Another approach is that the Old Testament is a collection of ancient religious writings but not the inspired word of God.

Acknowledging the strangeness of the Old Testament is essential to understanding it.

1 Kings 21

There are a number of passages which present seemingly strange Divine characteristics. I list a few:

1 Kings 22:9-23 (causes prophets to lie);

Ezekiel 14:9 (deceives prophets);

Amos 3:6 (the cause of evil in a city);

Ezekiel 20:25-26, 31 (gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice);

Hosea 9:15-16 (hates and curses);

Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (commands and condones slavery);

1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (sends evil spirits to influence men);

Ex 32:14; Deu 28:68; Am 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9, 10; Jer 26:13; 2 Sam 24:16 (changes his mind).

I read and commented on Numbers 5:11-30 - Procedure for determining a wife’s faithfulness. 

Callers and Email

1. A frequent caller who paints Mormonism in the blackest fashion. He insists that the only interest of the General Authorities is in collecting money from its members. 

2. This caller has written a novel which incorporates much of this author’s personal doctrinal views.

3. A frequent caller strongly criticized my view of the Old Testament.

4. A frequent caller discusses the question of whether God would deceive the prophets and questioning my doubting of the literalness of parts of the Old Testament.

5. A frequent caller condemns me for not believing the flood account literally, but insists that it is appropriate for him to discard to refuse a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation.

6. This caller was applying some wording from the book of Revelation to current events in America’s southern states.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 23 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Discussion of God With

Martin Tanner

Discussion with my guest Martin Tanner on the following topics:

Trinity

Book of Mormon doctrine

Early Mormon views of God

Diversity and development of concepts of God within Mormonism.

Questions by Email and Phone

What about monotheism in Isaiah and the trinitarianism or tritheism of the Book of Mormon at the same time?

What about God and gender?

Brigham Young’s view of Adam as God vs Evolution vs accounts of creation in Genesis, Moses, Abraham.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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I considered this question from notes I prepared two years ago for a formal debate on the topic with a Calvinist minister. My approach is more as a discussion than a debate due to the fact that four issues must be resolved before we could properly debate the question, “Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?” They are:

1. Which Bible?

2. What is the Biblical concept of Deity?

3. What is the Mormon concept of Deity?

4. Are we referring to the identity of God or to divergent views of God’s attributes and actions?

Callers and Email:

1. The reasoning behind non-LDS Christian arguments that Mormons are not Christians; divergent concepts of salvation.

2. A caller and I disagreed on two main points: That the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers demeans Jesus; and that the belief that Jesus created Satan out of nothing, flawed such that Jesus knew Satan would fall and become the author of evil, makes Jesus the creator, or the one responsible for all evil. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:

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Research Notes

I have a large collection of miscellaneous quotations, sources, references and notes which I have collected on a variety of subjects while involved in specific research projects. From time to time, I bring some of these to my talk show. In this one I presented the following six:

1. An allegation that Mormons murdered Lilburn Boggs, ex-Governor of Missouri, while he was on his way to California.

2. Peter H. Burnett, who was one of Joseph Smith’s attorneys and the first governor of California, wrote his impression of Joseph Smith.

3. John Taylor on truth and science. He taught that an appropriate pursuit of truth by Mormons is to set aside preconceived notions and bias and to search for truth from all possible sources, including the sciences.

4. Orson Pratt’s 1846 sermon, found in a journal entry of Norton Jacob, comments on the dating of creation.

5. Brigham Young speaks of his and Joseph Smith’s views on the resurrection as matters of individual belief. He endorsed individual speculation and belief, but not the assertion that this is the belief of the Church.

6. 21 January 1861 Wilford Woodruff’s synopsis of  Brigham Young’s sermon in which he speculates on the stature, in the resurrection, of those who died in infancy.

Callers and email:

All Mormons are liars, arrogant and do not believe in the Constitution and should not be protected by the first amendment.

Follow up from my discussion with Blake Ostler. Is there an ultimate head God, or is there an infinite order of Gods one above another?

Email from an evangelical Christian denouncing me and Mormonism.

Through the power of God, did the sun stand still for Joshua to allow him time to complete his attack?

Speculation regarding details of the resurrection.

Manifesto, revelation to John Taylor, revelation extending priesthood to the blacks, one mighty and strong.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 9 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Theology With Blake Ostler

Blake has authored a number of papers and articles and currently has completed two volumes of his multi-volume set, Exploring Mormon Thought.

Joseph Smith’s basic teaching that Mormons are open to receiving all truth; that Mormonism is progressive, looking for development of its beliefs in a variety of ways including thought, pondering and continued revelation, opens the path for the consideration of various aspects and angles beyond the parameters of basic Mormon doctrine.

Joseph Smith opposed the idea of a creed because it sets up stakes beyond which a person is not to think. Instead he encouraged LDS to seek deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.

We discussed our differences in our interpretations of Joseph Smith’s views as found in D&C 121:28-32 and two discourses: 7 April 1844 and 16 June 1844. Blake concludes that Joseph Smith believed that there is one Eternal God of all other gods. I conclude that, by 1844, Joseph Smith  believed that there is an infinite patriarchy of Gods - that there is no God who does not have a Father and God.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

Is not the Articles of Faith a creed, if not why?

What is the status of progressive Mormonism and Mormon neo-orthodoxy?

What about W.W. Phelps hymn “If you could hie to Kolob”?

What is a creed?

By Joseph Smith’s declaration that Jesus followed in the footsteps of his Father, does he mean that the Father was the Savior of the world upon which he went through mortality? Blake is trying to harmonize JS’s Nauvoo teachings on plurality of gods with his 1835 Book of Abraham council of gods. According to JS’s logic if there was a first God, there would have to be a last. What about the Adam God doctrine of Brigham Young?

God does not have a navel.

The Adam God theory is basic gospel truth and those who reject it will be damned.

Does God the Father have a Father?

Who was God the Father’s Father when he went through mortality?

Allegation that Joseph Smith believed the Adam God theory.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 26 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:

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 Approaches to the

 Old Testament

My guest was Val D. Greenwood, author of How Often Would I Have Gathered You: Stories from the Old Testament and Related Sources for Latter-day Saints. Val re-tells 229 Old Testament stories placing them in chronological order. He includes notes and sources specifically directed to an LDS audience. His re-telling is to simplify and clarify. Any such approach inevitably includes the author’s interpretation.

We discussed some of the differences in our two approachs to the Old Testament.

Are such stories as the creation, Job, Jonah and others to be taken literally?

Decisions must be made regarding theological positions which are contradictory within the Old Testament, or which are contradicted by the New Testament or by modern Mormon sources. We looked specifically at the cause of David’s sin in 2 Samuel 24 in contrast to 1 Chronicles 21 and the wager between God and Satan over the degree of Job’s faithfulness.

Why use the King James Version which is much more difficult to understand in contrast to modern English Bibles, several of which, among other points, focus on simplicity and clarity for modern readers?

Live callers and email were included in our discussion.

For those interested in Greenwood’s book, go to his website: http://newviewoldtestament.com/

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com Podcast address: www.mormonmisc.podbean.com

Talk Show Blog: www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 17 June 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to www.k-talk.com Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world.

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