Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

91. Joseph Smith Papers: Two Revelations Manuscripts

These two manuscript revelations were written in the 1830s, and now published in 2009. These two include a number Joseph Smith’s revelations from 1829 to 1835. One of the manuscript was recently found. The other manuscript has been known for many years.

The authors of this book are: Robin Jensen, Bob Woodford and Steve Harper. They discuss many topics and questions with the host, Van Hale. New information provides some old unanswered questions. Yet, other questions still beg for further research and insight. Many Latter-day Saints and their historians are anxious too understand details of their history.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 01 November 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855.

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@earthlink.net.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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[89]

My wife, Catherine, and long time associate, Steve Mayfield, joined me to discuss the 29 years of weekly talk shows. We discussed the origin and history of the program; some of the guests and topics and some of the myths fabricated about me and the program.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 7 June 2009 episode of the

Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

, now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@k-talk.com

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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The Nauvoo High Council Minutes

The Nauvoo High Council minutes are preserved in the LDS Archives. The nature and authority of this body can be outlined by the issues it considered and the actions taken. Attitudes of the council on marriage, divorce, remarriage, plural marriage, sexual immorality, disputes among members, spiritual claims and doctrinal teachings, disfellowshipment, excommunication and reinstatement, and the attitude and requests of Joseph Smith are among the many entries in this valuable record which I will discuss.

Belief, skepticism and proofs.

More on allegations of Temple blood oaths.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 26 April 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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 Early Publications of the Revelations

 My guest was Curt Bench. He is the proprietor of Benchmark Books in Salt Lake City and an expert on the wide range of publications on Mormonism over the past 179 years. Curt is a veteran dealer in publications old and new, rare and common. 

Smith-Pettit Foundation has just published The Parallel Doctrine and Covenants: The 1832-1833, 1833, and 1835 Editions of Joseph Smith’s Revelations. Curt authored the introduction. We discussed the history of the publication of Joseph Smith’s revelations up to 1835. Among the several early printings of the revelations there are many textual variations for a variety of reasons. The variants can be easily followed with this new important contribution to the study of early Mormonism. We discussed several and also views of the nature of Joseph Smith’s concept of revelation which would account for the changes made in the revelations.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 3 May 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” belowTo listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Big Love and the Temple Ceremony

Please be advised that this is a sensitive topic for LDS. Big Love is an HBO fictional series about a non-LDS group which subscribes to, and practices, their interpretation of Mormon polygamy of the 19th century. In the 15 March 2009 episode a false allegation is made about a commitment made, prior to 1990, by LDS participants in the LDS temple ceremony.

I discuss this and several other false allegations about the temple ceremony found in a number of anti-Mormon books, pamphlets and articles.

These topics include: blood oaths, an oath of vengeance, a lecture and human executions.

Topics raised by callers:

Alleged blood oath

Creation accounts in Genesis

Alleged lecture at the veil in the St George Temple

22 March 2009 Episode

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Doctrine and Covenants #2

I present an overview of the history of the D&C from 1828 to 1981 dicussing some additions, deletions, modifications, historical situations and doctrinal points.

I have a selection of notecards from my notecard collection I will be reading. It is Notecard Selection #7. I will email it to those who email me their request to van.hale@k-talk.com.

Topics raised by callers include:

Contents of the Book of Commandments Did Joseph Smith have children by any of his plural wives? Did not Heber J. Grant attempt to shorten the D&C substantially? Question on my view on Plural Marriage. The Kirtland Revelations Book.

 Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 18 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year. 

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

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He participated briefly in a splinter group before Joseph Smith’s murder and organized his own group after. A number of his personal writings have been discovered - his early diaries and several notebooks. This notebook presents his views and reminiscences on a number of topics and his enduring conviction that Joseph Smith had been a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is of Divine origin.

Ashworth and I discussed the notebook in some detail and he read a number of selections from it.

We also discussed some of Ashworth’s other purchases including some of the forged documents of the infamous Mark Hoffman.

Several participated questions by phone and email.

(The photo above is Brent Ashworth with the notebook. The photo below is the notebook opened to page 14-15)

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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D&C Facts and History #1

I raise a number of questions I will address regarding the history and content of the Doctrine and Covenants including additions and deletions in various editions.

Joseph Smith’s selection for the D&C in 1835 and 1844 differed from that of Orson Pratt and Brigham Young in 1876. Does this fact raise any questions?

Book of Commandments.

1835 Doctrine and Covenants

General Assembly called to vote for or against the D&C

Early publication of some revelations.

Comments on D&C 76, 121, 109, 129-131, 89

Procedure regarding acceptance or rejection of revelation.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 11 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year. 

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Joseph Smith Papers Interview

The LDS Church has begun a major project involving professionally trained historians to gather, prepare, edit and publish the papers of Joseph Smith, mostly located in the LDS Archives. This is to meet the highest professional standards. The first volume was just published. It publishes, word for word, the journals of Joseph Smith for the period of 1832-1839, with many footnotes, biographical and geographical notes, a glossary and chronology. It begins with an exellent overview of the life of Joseph Smith.

Nature of the journals

What they reveal of Joseph Smith

The degree of his religiosity

Remarkable Book Sales

Credibility of the editorial process

Objectivity of the editors

The involvement of LDS Authorities

Danites

Reasons the Church has hired LDS historians for this project

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 4 January 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year. 

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Mormons and Modern Israel

My guest is Daniel Rona. He was born in Israel - Educated in America - and was a radio and TV broadcaster in Salt Lake City, St. Louis, Chicago and New York, as well as an international newscaster for the Voice of Israel. Thirty-five years ago, he returned to Israel with his wife, Marilyn, and three children, they now have five children and six grandchildren. Daniel Rona is still providing learning experiences in and about Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Central America. He has been the only L.D.S. licensed tour guide and tour operator in Israel for close to thirty years. The Deseret News said, His background is unique: he is an American, an Israeli, a Mormon, and a Jew!

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Hard Evidence and Religious Conviction

A brand of Islam and racism

Who is saved

Belief in the Bible and Book of Mormon is not to be based on proof

Blacks and Mormonism

Financing the Book of Mormon

How do you prove something in scripture is true

Is there hard evidence of the resurrection of Jesus

Polygamy

Faith is not to be based on archaeology

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Polygamy: Joseph Smith’s Letter of Explanation

A letter of Joseph Smith on polygamy is well-known to many LDS as an article on Happiness. It was written such that its meaning would be hidden to those who do not know its historical context.

Its history includes a stir among LDS in Nauvoo in 1842, significant confrontations, exchanges in the newspapers, denials, defections and information on the early, private promulgation of polygamy.

Its content gives important insight into Joseph Smith’s views and even includes a revelation. Further, it is an excellent example of a literary form which clearly teaches an impressive message on the surface, but then buried beneath the surface is a deeper message comparable to occasions when Jesus taught something seemingly simple but then invited his disciples to think deeper with the phrase “he that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Those interested in a copy of the Joseph Smith letter discussed which I have placed in a parallel column with D&C 132 send your request to van.hale@k-talk.com and I will send it to you by email.

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More Thinking About Scriptures & Tradition

I discuss some points raised by passages and situations in the scriptures.

• Israelite views of proselyting• Deuteronmy 32:8 and an ancient concept of God called henotheism

• New Testament writers drawing from the Old Testament without concern for historicity

• Issue of retaining or setting aside the Law

• Power of tradition - even the Saints are slow to accept anything contrary to their tradition

• Joseph Smith’s progressive outlook

• Questions on Book of Mormon Historicity

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

• This is the 15 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

• To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

• If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

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LDS / non-LDS Exchange

Don Ormsby, a guest host on the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, talks with Randy Loeppky a non-LDS Christian an active advocate that Mormon claims are false and Mormons are not Christian. 

Discussion of whether or not the Church officers named in the New Testament should be continued in the Christian Church today.

 Participants asked about Sunday restrictions, who will be saved?, the Nicene Creed and early views of the possibility of man’s deification; revelation, why accept the Bible as the exclusive standard.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/

This is the 31 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

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Mystery of the Book of Mormon Translation

I discuss the numerous early sources, beginning in 1829, regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. Differing statements, peculiaries versions of the Book of Mormon supervised by Joseph Smith (the original manuscript and the printer’s manuscript, the 1830, 1837 and 1840 editions) and points of logic and reason. These factors have lead to several theories as to the source of the text of the Book of Mormon. After some 180 years the matter yet remains a mystery.

I focus especially on questions pertaining to the use of the interpreters, urim and thummin, seerstone and director.

I explain my own theory of the Book of Mormon translation.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Talk Show Blog:

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 24 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

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Testimony, Faith, Belief, Knowledge

I addressed several points touched upon in recent talk shows and in follow-up emails regarding testimony, faith, belief, knowledge, sure knowledge.I have been a little surprised at the divergence of opinion on what I think should be simple definitions and in the fervor of those who subscribe to these different positions.What does it mean to have a testimony? Does that mean a sure knowledge?

The LDS sources on this are extensive. We have good reason to be more precise in our use of words. When someone declares “I know…” I think there is value in that phrase having a precise meaning.

I read a number of sources which support my conclusion that belief and knowledge in our religious terminology are different. I am comfortable with being a believer and declaring my convictions as belief rather than knowledge.

Subjects raised by phone participants

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Common consent and false belief and prophecy

Degrees of knowledge

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS  Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 24 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below 

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Why Common Consent?

From the very beginning of the Church to the present, the operation of its various entities and the general body of the Church itself exercise the principle of common consent on a wide range of decisions. From the very beginning of the Church to the present, the operation of its various entities and the general body of the Church itself exercise the principle of common consent on a wide range of decisions.If God calls prophets and directs their every action and belief by revelation why would common consent be the foundation of the operation of the Church organization?

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An Alleged Prophet

Art Bulla has been claiming for almost 3 decades to be the successor of Joseph Smith holding the highest priesthood keys, being the Lord’s annointed and even superior to Joseph Smith and his successors, claiming to be One Mighty and Strong, to set an apostate LDS Church in order.After many years of discussion on the air and in person with Art Bulla I have decided to address his claims directly by talking about some basic principles of Mormonism introduced by Joseph Smith and endorsed by his successors, but ignored or denied by Bulla. I have tried hard to understand his claims.

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Understanding the United FirmMy guest was Max Parkin. He is retired from the LDS Church Educational System (CES) after spending a lifetime in the study and teaching of Mormon topics.

This is the 8 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Mormonism in Print

My guest, Curt Bench, is the owner of Benchmark Books and a leading authority on books published on Mormon history, doctrine, theology, biography, diaries etc. He deals in new, used and rare books. Following is a list of some topics covered in our discussion.

Book recommendationsComments on a number of books on MormonismA new publication of the first 3 editions of the Book of Mormon in parallel columns

Book of Mormon original manuscript, printers manuscript, first three printed additions

The rare Mormon book business - current going price for an original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon

Are there books which have been a challenge to our faith?

Paul H. Dunn books

Censured or Banned books

Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine

Upcoming publication of the Joseph Smith Papers

Writing of history

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 1 June 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

 

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Polygamy & the Utah Attorney General

What follows is a very interesting discussion I had a couple of years ago on the topic of modern polygamy in Utah with my guest was Mark Shurtleff, the Utah State Attorney General.

Unfortunately, the digital recording failed and this comes from a rather poor tape recording made by one of my listeners.

But, because of the topic’s timeliness, I am posting this episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show to my podcast site. A.G. Shurtleff gives considerable information and insight into events which currently are widely discussed daily in the national news media regarding the recent raid by Texas law inforcement agents of the polygamous community known as the FLDS, or the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

More than 400 children were taken from their homes and families and placed in State custody. What will be their future and how Texas, Utah and other states will deal with polygamy and other forms of non-traditional illegal sexual relationships has captured the interest of Americans.

Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and I were joined by callers in the discussion of:

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Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

Comments on the new LDS Church Almanac.

Accusation and response that the Church leaders are only interested in their callings in the Church for personal financial gain.

Allegations, prompted by Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the U.S., that he and other Mormons are not Christians, and that his religious beliefs should disqualify him for public office.

Brief article on “The Wrong Jesus and The Wrong Satan” by Bill Forrest.

Discussion with a caller about details of the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I read what purports to be the coroner’s report of June 28, 1844.

Discussion with a caller on Noah’s ark and the question of the historicity of all Biblical detail.

This is the 6 Januray 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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LDS Church Political Policy

I discuss the Christmas card allegedly sent by Mitt Romney to Republicans in North Carolina which purports to have been financed by the LDS Temple in Boston.A frequent caller attacked Mitt Romney; claimed Brigham Young did not believe in the Constitution; that he came to Utah to escape the U. S.; and that he declared that he did not believe in the Constitution. I responded to each of these points.I read a current statement of the Church’s neutrality on political elections and partisan politics and freedom of LDS, including those holding political office, to vote their conscience.Discussion with a caller on the interpretation of portions of scripture and how the interpretation one may be relevant to the interpretations of others.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 30 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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God and Omniscience

A number of topics were raised and discussed in this episode:

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God’s Omniscience:

Diversity of Mormon Views

In this episode I discuss several differing views of LDS leaders, including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, B. H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie on the topic of God’s omniscience.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young emphatically declared that the most spiritually advanced in this life will know but little of even the basics of the plan of salvation at the time of their death. From this perspective, they established an LDS position which persists - that we have no carefully worded creed which a person must accept to be LDS. Both of them advocated searching, pondering and speculating upon concepts, even mysteries. This, of course, resulted in a religious climate among the Saints where there would naturally be a diversity of views on even some basic topics, even regarding God and the Godhead.

I discuss the differences between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young on the whether God, or the Gods, progress in knowledge. Their differences resulted in published statements of the First presidency, and the First Presidency and the Twelve, to the Saints and comments in sermons by several General Authorities in the 1860s.   More recently, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, in the 1950s and 1960s expressed their views on the subject.

Email Participants (the phone system went down and thus there were no phone participants)

1. Mormons are so busy chasing after other Gods that they cannot know the one God of the Bible. I comment on this position.
2. A long email from a frequent participant denounces pursuit of our religious belief through research and study. He claims that we must turn to him; that he will tell us the truths we need to know; and that we are to pray to God, not for further knowledge, but rather, only for confirmation what this self-proclaimed prophet has declared. In my response I wandered off on to the question of, Who is Jehovah in Mormon belief in the 19th century in contrast to belief in the 20th century?
3. Another email further argues that Mormons do not believe in the God of the Bible and cannot, therefore, be Christians. The God of the Bible is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. I, of course, respond.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 9 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Development of Mormon Thought

on the Holy Ghost

I trace the development of Mormon thought, from 1829 to the present, on the Holy Ghost. I pursue such questions as:

Is the Holy Ghost a personage?

What is the future of the Holy Ghost?

Was Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost?

Why did the current LDS view of the Holy Ghost take so long to develop?

Regarding the Holy Ghost, I discuss the Book of Mormon and other early sources, specifically Lecture Five in a series of lectures given in 1834, and Joseph Smith’s teachings during the last four years of his life in Nauvoo.

Participants by Phone and Email

1. I read and responded to an email which asserts that the Bible teaches there is one God expressed in three persons. I read several Biblical passages which draw a clear distinction between God and Jesus and others which refer to the existence of a number of gods.
2. A caller addressed himself to this topic and we further discussed the question of the deity of Jesus as related to the New Testament.
3. A caller contributed several views regarding the spirit of man and the workings of the Holy Ghost.
4. Further discussion with a caller regarding the early LDS views (1830s) of the Father as a spirit in contrast to Joseph Smith’s teaching in Nauvoo (1841-1844) that the Father has resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 2 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Development of Joseph Smith’s

Concept of God

Joseph Smith acknowledged that his views were progressive - that is, his views of God differed on a number of points from 1829 to 1844. From a number of sources I have developed the following approximate timeline for the development of Joseph Smith’s views of God.

1. Jesus is God. 1829-1844
2. Jesus pre-existed as the Son. 1829-1844
3. In some way Jesus is the Son and also the Father. 1829-1833
4. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one. 1829-1844
5. The Father is a personage of spirit 1829-1835 or 1834-1835
6. The Holy Ghost is not a personage, but rather the mind of the Father and the Son. 1834-1841
7. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit awaiting the opportunity to take upon himself a body of flesh and bones. 1841-1844
8. The Saints have the potential to become gods and goddesses. 1832-1844
9. Our God and Father has a God and Father. 1841-1844
10. The Father went through mortality and has a resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus. 1841-1844
11. There is an Eternal God of all other Gods. 1838-1841
12. There is one God above another with no end. 1841-1844
13. There was a grand council of Gods to plan and create this world. 1839-1844

I discussed the four main points of the King Follett discourse of 7 April 1844.  

Participation by Phone and Email

1. I respond to an email condemning Brigham Young and his view of Adam as God. Did he believe in a different God than the God of the Bible?
2. Why are there two different trinities in LDS thought: Elohim, Jehovah and the Holy Ghost; and, Elohim, Jehovah and Michael?
3. Comments on Brigham Young’s position that there would be differences on God if saints ancient and modern where gathered together.
4. Does not the Book of Mormon present the idea that God could cease to be God?
5. A caller condemns me for not accepting his views about Brigham Young’s teachings regarding Adam. I explain my preference for Joseph Smith’s view over that of Brigham Young on this point.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 25 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

On this talk show I answer a number of questions regarding Brigham Young’s unique beliefs regarding Adam. This has been a controversial topic for more than 100 years. Answers the following questions are included:

1. What did Brigham Young believe?
2. To what extent did he teach his views?
3. Did he consider his authoritative; that is, official Mormon doctrine?
4. Does his role as president and prophet demand that his views be accepted by LDS?
5. Did his contemporaries in the Church hierarchy accept his views?
6. Did his views on Adam differ from those of Joseph Smith?

Callers and Email

• Joseph Smith’s view that spirits are eternal and Brigham Young’s view that spirits begin to exist through a spirit birth.
• A caller spoke in defense of his view that Adam is God citing some passages and arguments.
• Change of one word in the introduction of the Book of Mormon.    

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 18 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity

In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion.

My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity.  Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith.

Callers:

What is monarchianism?

What about Brian Hale’s comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904?

This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Mormon Fundamentalism

My guest was Brian C. Hales, author of Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism. We discussed this timely, diverse and little known topic. The question is often asked, Who are Mormon fundamentalists and what do they believe. The answer is far more complex than most would think. Hales has brought together a significant body of material to address this question. Many personalities and events have lead to the great diversity which exists among the many factions included by this broad term, “Mormon fundamentalism.” We discussed many points of interest and importance in understanding the history and beliefs of this category within the Mormon tradition.

The beginnings of the Mormon fundamentalist movement.

Is “fundamentalist” an appropriate term for the, so-called Mormon fundamentalists?

The 1890 Woodruff Manifesto

Authority issue, if one man holds the keys, as taught by Joseph Smith, who now holds those keys?

Lorin Wooley claimed that a priesthood organization exists outside of the LDS Church with superior authority.

Authorship of the Manifesto.

Interpretations of the Manifesto: was it a revelation, the result of a revelation or a trick by Wilford Woodruff to deceive the U.S. Government.

Issue of cohabitation after the 1890 Manifesto.

Problems with the claims that the keys had been passed to Lorin Wooley and others in an 1886.

Callers and Email:

Art Bulla called to declare his claim that he is the only one who can authorize plural marriages; that he is the one mighty and strong and the Lord’s anointed and those who do not accept this will be damned. He claimed that he was called to be an apostle in a stake meeting in North Carolina in 1976. He claimed that no LDS President since Wilford Woodruff has been the Lord’s anointed; that the keys were somewhere out in the wilderness from 1890 to 1978; and that he (Art) appointed someone to give him the keys and the Lord’s anointing.

Splintering among the fundamentalist groups due to divergent claims of authority.

There are many independent fundamentalists who do not belong to any of the several fundamentalist groups. They make many divergent claims.

A disciple of Art Bulla called to support him. He claimed that the LDS Church fell into apostasy in 1978, but would not confirm nor deny whether David O. McKay was a true prophet, the Lord’s anointed, holding the highest priesthood keys.

A caller asked why anyone would be interested in all of this history of polygamy.

A caller asked questions regarding the united order and law of consecration. Brian Hales’ sister, a former fundamentalist, sent an email briefly mentioning her experience and point of view.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 14 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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An Encounter with Exmormon.org

I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927.   I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect.

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John D. Lee Scroll, Another Forgery?

Steve Mayfield joined me to discuss our recent expedition to Page, Arizona with forensic document expert, George Throckmorton to examine a lead scroll  found in January of 2002 in a small 2 room fort built at Lee’s Ferry (named after John D. Lee) on the Colorado River in 1874. The scroll purports to be written by John D. Lee, 11 January 1872, in which he states that Brigham Young gave orders for the Mountain Meadows Massacre which were delivered by Apostle George A. Smith.

We spent the day with the National Parks Ranger, Allen Malmquist, who found the scroll. It is now housed in the National Parks vault/archives at Page. We examined the scroll and other items in the archives for about two hours, and Throckmorton collected some small samples from the scroll to be tested at a chemical labratory.   We travelled with him to a number of sites including the Fort and Signature Rock, which has more than 200 signatures of 19th century travellers, including that of John D. Lee, 25 December 1871.

Malmquist discussed with us, in great detail, the history of the area, especially John D. Lee’s involvement, the history of the fort, the ferry, Lee’s Lonely Dell Ranch and many other topics. 

We traveled with Malmquist to the building at Lee’s ferry where the scroll was found. He explained, in precise detail, the circumstances of his finding of the scroll and its history to the present.

On this talk show we discussed further investigation of this lead scroll. There are many reasons, physical, historical, provenance, contextual and handwriting, to suspect the scroll is a forgery.

Comments and Questions from Callers and Email:

Prophets are not infallible.

Wide latitude of Divinely approved acts of the prophets found in the Bible.

How was the scroll found?

Charles W. Penrose was the author of the Wilford Woodruff Manifesto of 1890.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 23 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Miscellaneous Topics/Open Forum 

Topics

Preliminary comments on a lead scroll, found in 2002 at Lee’s Ferry on the Colorado river, which purports to be written by John D. Lee, to be discussed in the next episode. It attributes the ultimate order for the Mountain Meadows Massacre to Brigham Young.

The ultimate authority in the LDS Church rests with the body of the Church.

Deseret News editorial by Charles W. Penrose  30 November 1889.

President Joseph F. Smith’s testimony in the Reed Smoot hearings.

B.H. Roberts on two types of disciples.

Callers and Email:

A warning that God’s judgement is coming soon.

Comments on LDS views on the PBS two part documentary, “The Mormons.”

Politics among Mormons in the 19th century.

Allegation that the LDS Church is all about collecting 10% from the members to make the leaders richer.

A non-Mormon woman responds to this rabid anti-Mormon caller.

Book of Abraham issue. Various views on the differences between Egyptologists interpretive translation and that of Joseph Smith.

Question about the existence, location and authority of an 1886 revelation to John Taylor.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 16 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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History With an

LDS Historian

I was very pleased to have Ronald Barney as my guest. He is a professional historian who has been employed in the LDS Historical Department for the past 30 years. He has published widely on Mormon topics including an award winning book, The Mormon Vanguard Brigade of 1847: Norton Jacob’s Record. He is also working on the extensive multi-volume work, the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

Topics of Discussion

Joseph Smith Papers Project - scope, problems and projected publication.

Udney Hay Jacobs - author of “The Peace Maker,” an essay on marriage, including the idea that the Old Testament form of marriage, including plural marriage, should be reinstated. It was published at Nauvoo by the Times and Seasons press before he joined the LDS Church. This has been the subject of some controversy as to its author. It has been claimed that Joseph Smith authored this or collaborated in the content.

Norton Jacobs, son of Udney, joined the LDS Church. He kept a fine journal. Ron has edited this diary, adding much by way of footnotes. It is a very fine publication covering part of the Nauvoo period and the first company of Saints to travel to Salt Lake Valley in 1847.

Personal Writings of Joseph Smith - letters, diaries articles and the Liberty Jail letter.

From Callers and Email

Where was the Church organized, Fayette or Manchester?

What is the Kirtland Revelations Book?

The Joseph Smith translation of the Bible.

The DVD publication by the Church of over 400,000 pages of documents from its manuscript collection, including the entire Joseph Smith collection.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 9 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Theology With Blake Ostler

Blake has authored a number of papers and articles and currently has completed two volumes of his multi-volume set, Exploring Mormon Thought.

Joseph Smith’s basic teaching that Mormons are open to receiving all truth; that Mormonism is progressive, looking for development of its beliefs in a variety of ways including thought, pondering and continued revelation, opens the path for the consideration of various aspects and angles beyond the parameters of basic Mormon doctrine.

Joseph Smith opposed the idea of a creed because it sets up stakes beyond which a person is not to think. Instead he encouraged LDS to seek deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.

We discussed our differences in our interpretations of Joseph Smith’s views as found in D&C 121:28-32 and two discourses: 7 April 1844 and 16 June 1844. Blake concludes that Joseph Smith believed that there is one Eternal God of all other gods. I conclude that, by 1844, Joseph Smith  believed that there is an infinite patriarchy of Gods - that there is no God who does not have a Father and God.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

Is not the Articles of Faith a creed, if not why?

What is the status of progressive Mormonism and Mormon neo-orthodoxy?

What about W.W. Phelps hymn “If you could hie to Kolob”?

What is a creed?

By Joseph Smith’s declaration that Jesus followed in the footsteps of his Father, does he mean that the Father was the Savior of the world upon which he went through mortality? Blake is trying to harmonize JS’s Nauvoo teachings on plurality of gods with his 1835 Book of Abraham council of gods. According to JS’s logic if there was a first God, there would have to be a last. What about the Adam God doctrine of Brigham Young?

God does not have a navel.

The Adam God theory is basic gospel truth and those who reject it will be damned.

Does God the Father have a Father?

Who was God the Father’s Father when he went through mortality?

Allegation that Joseph Smith believed the Adam God theory.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 26 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Two Month Nauvoo Temple Operation 

I cover some of the events, ordinances, sermons, and happenings in the Nauvoo Temple during its short term of operation from 11 December 1845 to 8 February 1846. A major source for my comments is the valuable book: The Nauvoo Endowment Companies, edited by Gary Bergera and Devery Anderson, compiled primarily from Nauvoo Temple records and diaries. I discuss:

Laying of the cornerstones of the Temple

Extensive detailed records

The ordinances - baptism for the dead, washings, anointings, washing and anointing for health, washing of feet, endowments, second anointing, marriage, sealings (living, dead, children), adoptions, ordinations (elder, seventy, high priest), prayer circles

Types of marriages/sealings performed in the temple - for time and eternity; for time; for eternity; monogamous for time-plural for eternity; plural for time-monogamous for eternity; plural for time and eternity; non-sexual for time

Wedding ceremonies, celebration and recreation in the temple

Dancing in the temple unto the Lord - Brigham Young’s explanation and defense

Music in the temple

Secrecy directives

Prominent themes of the temple prayers

Actors in the Endowment drama

First Temple expose

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

A strong condemnation of my motives and my response.

Priesthood is outside of the Church.

Is the Book of Mormon fact or fiction?

Three Book of Mormon doctrines which are wrong.

The Church fell into apostasy in 1978 in giving the Blacks the priesthood, and a former 70 now is the Lord’s Anointed.

The fact that Pres. Kimball received a revelation to extend the priesthood to the Blacks means there must have been a revelation to withhold the priesthood from the Blacks.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 19 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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My Sunstone Experience

At a session at the Sunstone Symposium three panelists discussed the need for a more aggressive approach to some of the more difficult Mormon topics. The idea they posed was that it would be better for Mormons to be introduced to controversial topics from within the Church rather than by Mormonism’s critics.

I tell my experience of discussing the Trinity with a young Christian Evangelical, following my participation in a session on the doctrine of God in the Book of Mormon.

I comment on the paper I presented at Sunstone on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Oath of Vengeance and read an outrageous charge from the new book September Dawn, which is also a movie scheduled to be released the end of August.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

John Krakauer’s best selling book Evolution - several different views Can a divorced man become a bishop? Speculation on replacement of Pres. Hinckley’s counsellor, Pres. Faust Succession claims following the death of Joseph Smith Will Bagley’s response to my Sunstone paper on the Oath of Vengeance Are Church manuals going to be more scholarly? Adam God theory Joseph Smith’s testimony

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 12 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Polygamy Discussion with Author, Carmon Hardy My guest was B. Carmon Hardy, author of Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy, Its origin, practice, and demise. His book is a collection of important documents on polygamy throughout its history in 19th century Mormonism. Hardy includes his comments and footnotes throughout. It is an excellent work which I highly recommend.

We discussed a number of the controversial issues regarding the Mormon practice of polygamy in the 19th century, including:

the origin;

Book of Mormon references;

why there is almost no evidence that Joseph Smith had children by any wife but Emma;

why some women who were already married were sealed to Joseph Smith;

the 1879 Supreme Court ruling;

early denials of the practice;

the 1852 public announcement of the practice and subsequent defense of the principle, etc.

A number of listeners participated by phone and email.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 22 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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King Follett Discourse: Textual History and Controversy

On 7 April 1844 Joseph Smith spoke to the largest audience of Saints assembled during his lifetime. He brought together concepts he had touched upon for several years into a very important doctrinal address. It was then, and has continued throughout Mormon history, to be a controversial declaration of his views about how God came to be God and His intent for the progression of men to become gods. Joseph Smith explained that there is much to know in regard to salvation and exaltation which will not be known until long after we leave this life, but that there is much to be known in this life by those Saints inclined to seek.

Several doctrinal points in the discourse have lead some, over the past 130 years, to question or dispute the accuracy of the the published report of this discourse. They are:

1. The plurality of Gods 2. The stature in the resurrection of those who die in infancy 3. The concept that all mankind existed as intelligences before becoming spirits.

I present the findings from my research of a number of unpublished sources in the LDS Archives to address these arguments.

I discuss the four reports which were taken, by whom and how they were amalgamated to result in the standard version published during the past 100 years.

I include a six column parallel of these three sections of the discourse which have been the focus of these arguments. Four columns give the text from the four who wrote reports of the discourse, one column gives the first published version of 1844, authorized by the Quorum of the Twelve, and the other column gives the version prepared in 1855, examined and approved by Brigham Young for inclusion in the History of the Church - the one which has been published during the past 100 years.

Several, through phone calls and email, participated with questions and comments on the King Follett discourse, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, criticism of other callers.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 15 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes. The article I used in this episode is now available in my eStore

To make a comment, click on “comment” below.

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 The Alleged Oath of Vengeance Beginning in 1847 the allegation was made that the Saints were required in the endowment ceremony in the Nauvoo Temple to take an oath to “use our influence to murder this nation” to avenge “for their killing the Prophet Joseph.”A number of ex-Mormons wrote addition anti-Mormon exposes making similar claims regarding the ceremony performed in the Endowment House in Salt Lake City from 1855-1889. In sworn testimony in hearings in 1889, 1904-1906 a number of Mormons testified that no such Oath existed.They were joined by several ex-Mormons who also denied its existence. Other ex-Mormons testified that it was included in the endowment ceremony.

Perhaps, for a number of reasons, the one most qualified to speak on the matter was Wilford Woodruff. As President of the Church in 1889 he gave an explanation that “avenging” and “prophets” were mentioned in the endowment ceremony in an instruction given to the Saints to pray for God to avenge the murder of prophets and saints. He stated that this was included in the endowment ceremony by Joseph Smith in 1842 based upon Revelation 6:9-10 and this had not been changed. He maintained that Joseph and Hyrum were not mentioned in the ceremony nor was the American Nation considered responsible for the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum and, therefore, was not specifically identified as the object of vengeance.

From his explanation it would follow that those claiming the existence of an Oath of Vengeance for the Mormons to resort to murder to avenge the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum upon the American Nation was an extreme twisting of the endowment ceremony.

Recently, several authors and historians have claimed that this alleged Oath of Vengeance played a major role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I discuss this topic presenting some of my research for a paper 20 years ago. I plan to make available some of my sources and reasoning in an article to be available in my eStore this coming week.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 1 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

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