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[89] 29 Years of Mormon Miscellaneous

[89]

29 Years of Mormon Miscellaneous

My wife, Catherine, and long time associate, Steve Mayfield, joined me to discuss the 29 years of weekly talk shows. We discussed the origin and history of the program; some of the guests and topics and some of the myths fabricated about me and the program.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

 

Official website:http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 7 June 2009 episode of the

Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

, now in its 30th year.

To participate live by phone dial: 801-254-5855

Or, to participate by email, write to: van.hale@k-talk.com

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

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Nauvoo High Council Minutes

The Nauvoo High Council Minutes

The Nauvoo High Council minutes are preserved in the LDS Archives. The nature and authority of this body can be outlined by the issues it considered and the actions taken. Attitudes of the council on marriage, divorce, remarriage, plural marriage, sexual immorality, disputes among members, spiritual claims and doctrinal teachings, disfellowshipment, excommunication and reinstatement, and the attitude and requests of Joseph Smith are among the many entries in this valuable record which I will discuss.

Belief, skepticism and proofs.

More on allegations of Temple blood oaths.

 

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 26 April 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

 

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More on the Temple Ceremony

More on the Temple Ceremony

I continue a discussion of alleged elements of the temple ceremony which I began last week. I present and discuss sources regarding the numerous allegations that in the 19th century Mormons, by oath, committed themselves to murder Americans and to seek the destruction of the Nation. I do this in response to a post

Other topics raised by participants include the question of the frequency and recording of revelations; the policies regarding the establishment of authority; a debate on the Biblical infallibility; Mormons saving the Constitution.

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website:

http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/This is the 29 March 2009 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

 

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Big Love and the Temple Ceremony

 

 

Big Love and the Temple Ceremony

Please be advised that this is a sensitive topic for LDS. Big Love is an HBO fictional series about a non-LDS group which subscribes to, and practices, their interpretation of Mormon polygamy of the 19th century. In the 15 March 2009 episode a false allegation is made about a commitment made, prior to 1990, by LDS participants in the LDS temple ceremony.

I discuss this and several other false allegations about the temple ceremony found in a number of anti-Mormon books, pamphlets and articles.

These topics include: blood oaths, an oath of vengeance, a lecture and human executions.

Topics raised by callers:

Alleged blood oath

Creation accounts in Genesis

Alleged lecture at the veil in the St George Temple

22 March 2009 Episode

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Hard Evidence and Religious Conviction

Hard Evidence and Religious Conviction

 

Guest host Don Ormsby addressed the following topics raised by participants and by himself:
A brand of Islam and racism

Who is saved

Belief in the Bible and Book of Mormon is not to be based on proof

Blacks and Mormonism

Financing the Book of Mormon

How do you prove something in scripture is true

Is there hard evidence of the resurrection of Jesus

Polygamy

Faith is not to be based on archaeology

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://mormonmiscellaneous.com

Podcast address: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/
This is the 14 September 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year. 

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Listen Now:


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Mystery of the Book of Mormon Translation

Mystery of the Book of Mormon Translation

I discuss the numerous early sources, beginning in 1829, regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. Differing statements, peculiaries versions of the Book of Mormon supervised by Joseph Smith (the original manuscript and the printer’s manuscript, the 1830, 1837 and 1840 editions) and points of logic and reason. These factors have lead to several theories as to the source of the text of the Book of Mormon. After some 180 years the matter yet remains a mystery.

I focus especially on questions pertaining to the use of the interpreters, urim and thummin, seerstone and director.

I explain my own theory of the Book of Mormon translation.

 

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Talk Show Blog:

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

 

This is the 24 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below

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A Visit with a Mormon Apologist

A Visit with a Mormon Apologist

Mike Ash will be my guest to discuss his new book: Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One’s Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt. His approach is the presentation of source material and logic to answer, from a faith promoting perspective, many issues which lead some to doubt their LDS faith. He deals with such topics as: Revelation, prophets, scripture and historical issues. Some of the specifics include, changes in scripture, response to the insistence that prophets must be infallible and omniscient, challenges to Book of Mormon histority and similar challenges to the Book of Abraham, the first vision issues and many others.

Major Issues which trouble LDS who study points raised by critics.

Polygamy Godhead Book of Mormon historicity  Book of Abraham historicity Differences in First Vision accounts Differences between scientists and some events in our scripture

 

LDS attitudes which lead to doubts

Belief that the Church and its leaders are infallible LDS in their testimonies declare that they know, rather than that they believe

Positions which dispell many arguments of critics  

Prophets are not infallible Prophets are not omniscientThe Church is not perfect  Scriptures are not perfect There is much to learn about God, salvation, mysteries which will not be learned in this life LDS prophets have differed in their beliefs on various doctrinal points God gives revelations which are unexpected Belief that parts of scripture are not to be taken literally There is very little mandatory doctrine Recognition of the shotgun approach of many critics

 

Issues raised  

The Church does not believe in civil rights A caller claimed that my guest and I are cultural Mormons who believe that the Church and its leaders are infallible. He claimed I am a liberal. I declared that he was correct; that I am a disciple of Joseph Smith, and by virtue of my belief in his teachings, I am a liberal.  Literal interpretation of Noah’s Flood

 

Discussion of a panel at the Sunstone Symposium which reviewed Mike Ash’s book  

Discussion of the recent FAIR Conference and the FAIR organization

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS   Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 17 August 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below 

 

 

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Apologetics: A Believer’s Answers

Apologetics: A Believer’s Answers

Don Ormsby hosted the program this week and Jeff Lindsay joined him to discuss Mormonism from an apologetic perspective. Jeff explained Mormon apologetics as he sees it. He addresses many issues on his website jefflindsay.com

Callers and email prompted Jeff’s extensive discussion of the Book of Abraham. He also discussed creation, DNA, secret combinations and the anti-Mormon activity at the annual LDS pageant in Manti, Utah.

This is the 6 July 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 29th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:


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An Alleged Prophet

An Alleged Prophet

Art Bulla has been claiming for almost 3 decades to be the successor of Joseph Smith holding the highest priesthood keys, being the Lord’s annointed and even superior to Joseph Smith and his successors, claiming to be One Mighty and Strong, to set an apostate LDS Church in order.After many years of discussion on the air and in person with Art Bulla I have decided to address his claims directly by talking about some basic principles of Mormonism introduced by Joseph Smith and endorsed by his successors, but ignored or denied by Bulla. I have tried hard to understand his claims.

Basically, he claims that his having been ordained a 70 gives him the highest priesthood keys, eventhough he was excommunicated from the Church. He argues that a person need not be a member of the Church to hold the highest priesthood keys. In fact, he claims that the highest keys are held by a council known as the Council of 50, organized by Joseph Smith in 1844. However, to be a member of this Council, according to Bulla, holding the highest priesthood keys, a person did not need to believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, Jesus or God.

Bulla claims he received the highest priesthood keys from the Church, which he asserts has been in apostasy for some time. I have asked him a number of times to trace the highest keys, those to be held only by one man at a time on the earth, from Joseph Smith to himself. He has never gone beyond Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or John Taylor. He weaves a claim of revelation; a pre-existent foreordination; ordination to a 70 before his excommunication; extension of the priesthood to the blacks in 1978, resulting, as he alleges, to a latter-day apostasy of the Church; a total disregard for the vision of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, of great success and expansion of the Church worldwide, diminishing this vision to that of one prophet holding the keys, with one disciple, no Church or priesthood quorums.

I discuss such Mormon Basics as:

The highest priesthood keys were to be invested in the Church.

The President of the Church is the President of the High Priesthood.

All who leave the Church or are excommunicated hold no priesthood keys or authority.

There is to be no modern-day apostasy of the Church.

The meaning of D&C 85 on the “one mighty and strong.”

 

 

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Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

Posted in Joseph Smith, Mormon History, All Podcasts, Old Testament, Anti-Mormon Allegations, Bible by mormonmisc on April 17th, 2008

Death of Joseph Smith Miscellaneous Topics

Comments on the new LDS Church Almanac.

Accusation and response that the Church leaders are only interested in their callings in the Church for personal financial gain.

Allegations, prompted by Mitt Romney’s candidacy for President of the U.S., that he and other Mormons are not Christians, and that his religious beliefs should disqualify him for public office.

Brief article on “The Wrong Jesus and The Wrong Satan” by Bill Forrest.

Discussion with a caller about details of the death of Joseph and Hyrum. I read what purports to be the coroner’s report of June 28, 1844.

Discussion with a caller on Noah’s ark and the question of the historicity of all Biblical detail.

This is the 6 Januray 2008 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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LDS Church Political Policy

LDS Church Political Policy

I discuss the Christmas card allegedly sent by Mitt Romney to Republicans in North Carolina which purports to have been financed by the LDS Temple in Boston.A frequent caller attacked Mitt Romney; claimed Brigham Young did not believe in the Constitution; that he came to Utah to escape the U. S.; and that he declared that he did not believe in the Constitution. I responded to each of these points.I read a current statement of the Church’s neutrality on political elections and partisan politics and freedom of LDS, including those holding political office, to vote their conscience.Discussion with a caller on the interpretation of portions of scripture and how the interpretation one may be relevant to the interpretations of others.

Comments on D&C 134. I contrast this section with Old Testament policy.

Joseph Smith’s 1844 statement on religion and government.

Email from an LDS democrat regarding the Chuch political position.

A caller read a statement of Joseph Smith and his comments.

Discussion with a caller about views of the Bible and interpretation of the Old Testament;

Mitt Romney and prevailing biases.

A caller asked about the historicity of the Bible in comparison and contrast to the Book of Mormon.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 30 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:


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Strange Elements of the Old Testament

Posted in All Podcasts, Old Testament, Anti-Mormon Allegations, Bible, God / Godhead, Adam God belief by mormonmisc on March 30th, 2008

Strange Elements of the Old Testament

I comment on the Ensign article on Joseph Smith’s journals, the Joseph Smith Papers project and the new Priesthood / Relief Society manual for 2008.I received an email asking a question about God sending lying spirits to the prophets to deceive the king. In addressing this issue, I briefly comment on several approaches to the Old Testament.

1. Rejection of the Old Testament by many early Christians.

2. Modern approach of a majority of Christians who ignore all but a few selected passages and stories from the Old Testament.

3. Another approach is that the Old Testament is a collection of ancient religious writings but not the inspired word of God.

Acknowledging the strangeness of the Old Testament is essential to understanding it.

1 Kings 21

There are a number of passages which present seemingly strange Divine characteristics. I list a few:

1 Kings 22:9-23 (causes prophets to lie);

Ezekiel 14:9 (deceives prophets);

Amos 3:6 (the cause of evil in a city);

Ezekiel 20:25-26, 31 (gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice);

Hosea 9:15-16 (hates and curses);

Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (commands and condones slavery);

1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (sends evil spirits to influence men);

Ex 32:14; Deu 28:68; Am 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9, 10; Jer 26:13; 2 Sam 24:16 (changes his mind).

I read and commented on Numbers 5:11-30 - Procedure for determining a wife’s faithfulness. 

Callers and Email

1. A frequent caller who paints Mormonism in the blackest fashion. He insists that the only interest of the General Authorities is in collecting money from its members. 

2. This caller has written a novel which incorporates much of this author’s personal doctrinal views.

3. A frequent caller strongly criticized my view of the Old Testament.

4. A frequent caller discusses the question of whether God would deceive the prophets and questioning my doubting of the literalness of parts of the Old Testament.

5. A frequent caller condemns me for not believing the flood account literally, but insists that it is appropriate for him to discard to refuse a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation.

6. This caller was applying some wording from the book of Revelation to current events in America’s southern states.  

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 23 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:


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Development of Mormon Thought on the Holy Ghost

Development of Mormon Thought

on the Holy Ghost

I trace the development of Mormon thought, from 1829 to the present, on the Holy Ghost. I pursue such questions as:

Is the Holy Ghost a personage?

What is the future of the Holy Ghost?

Was Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost?

Why did the current LDS view of the Holy Ghost take so long to develop?

Regarding the Holy Ghost, I discuss the Book of Mormon and other early sources, specifically Lecture Five in a series of lectures given in 1834, and Joseph Smith’s teachings during the last four years of his life in Nauvoo.

Participants by Phone and Email

  1. I read and responded to an email which asserts that the Bible teaches there is one God expressed in three persons. I read several Biblical passages which draw a clear distinction between God and Jesus and others which refer to the existence of a number of gods.
  2. A caller addressed himself to this topic and we further discussed the question of the deity of Jesus as related to the New Testament.
  3. A caller contributed several views regarding the spirit of man and the workings of the Holy Ghost.
  4. Further discussion with a caller regarding the early LDS views (1830s) of the Father as a spirit in contrast to Joseph Smith’s teaching in Nauvoo (1841-1844) that the Father has resurrected body of flesh and bones like that of Jesus.

 

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 2 December 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:


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Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

Brigham Young’s Belief that Adam is God

On this talk show I answer a number of questions regarding Brigham Young’s unique beliefs regarding Adam. This has been a controversial topic for more than 100 years. Answers the following questions are included:

  1. What did Brigham Young believe?
  2. To what extent did he teach his views?
  3. Did he consider his authoritative; that is, official Mormon doctrine?
  4. Does his role as president and prophet demand that his views be accepted by LDS?
  5. Did his contemporaries in the Church hierarchy accept his views?
  6. Did his views on Adam differ from those of Joseph Smith?

Callers and Email

  • Joseph Smith’s view that spirits are eternal and Brigham Young’s view that spirits begin to exist through a spirit birth.
  • A caller spoke in defense of his view that Adam is God citing some passages and arguments.
  • Change of one word in the introduction of the Book of Mormon.    

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS

Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/

Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/

Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog

This is the 18 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Listen Now:


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Encounter with Exmormon.org

An Encounter with Exmormon.org

I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927.   I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect.

Some ex-Mormons had published and testified that the endowment included an oath by participants for themselves, not God, to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. I insisted that to come to a reasonable conclusion on this matter, all source material should be gathered, sifted and assessed. My claim that such sources even exist resulted in a remarkable response. The degree of their aggressiveness, their hatred, their rage and fury I found startling and somewhat troubling. Many tragedies, in the past and the present, begin with their type of incendiary words and end in horrific mob action or hate crimes.My policy on my talk show dramatically differs. All are welcome to call or email with a point of view. All views are allowed, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. And,  Mormonism may be attacked, defended, or a question may be asked or some point discussed.Callers:

 

 

Should the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution allow Mormons to practice their religion; plagarisms in the Book of Mormon; Book of Mormon historicity.

Death, or blood oaths in the endowment ceremony in 1984?

An exmormon claimed that he made an oath of secrecy in 1980 in the temple in which he agreed for his life to be taken if he divulged any temple secrets. I disagreed. He brought up the question of Brigham Young’s involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

This caller questioned me on my position, Do I represent the Church or myself?  

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Personal Statement: Response to an ExMormon Critic

Personal Statement:

Response to an ExMormon Critic

A long time listener sent me a scathing email which he has published on the internet on exmormon.org, a rabidly anti-Mormon board, where I am refused participation. He claimed that I am a “puppet” and apologist for the LDS Church. I responded to his false charge by reviewing the 27 year policy of my talk show with comments on the involvement of LDS leaders in its content. Also, I listed and commented on some of my personal views, including those where I diverge from the Mormon mainstream. This is my candid effort to explain where I believe I fit in Mormonism, specifically expressing my attitude toward the Church.

I read this email and also my written response. The author of the email called in and we discussed and disagreed on a number of his points. We discussed:

My insistence that I defend my views, not the Church Oath of vengeance Blood oaths Mountain Meadows massacre John D. Lee’s denial that Brigham Young ordered the MMM Hoffman’s forged letter of Jonathan Dunham

Other callers:

This caller read some of the posts then being added to the exmormon.org about this discussion with the author of the email.

Steve Benson and Ezra Taft Benson.

Resolving religious issues through physical confrontation.

Comment on the claim of religious leader, Warren Jeffs.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 30 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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John D. Lee Lead Scroll, Another Forgery?

John D. Lee Scroll, Another Forgery?

LeadScroll.jpg 

Steve Mayfield joined me to discuss our recent expedition to Page, Arizona with forensic document expert, George Throckmorton to examine a lead scroll  found in January of 2002 in a small 2 room fort built at Lee’s Ferry (named after John D. Lee) on the Colorado River in 1874. The scroll purports to be written by John D. Lee, 11 January 1872, in which he states that Brigham Young gave orders for the Mountain Meadows Massacre which were delivered by Apostle George A. Smith.

We spent the day with the National Parks Ranger, Allen Malmquist, who found the scroll. It is now housed in the National Parks vault/archives at Page. We examined the scroll and other items in the archives for about two hours, and Throckmorton collected some small samples from the scroll to be tested at a chemical labratory.   We travelled with him to a number of sites including the Fort and Signature Rock, which has more than 200 signatures of 19th century travellers, including that of John D. Lee, 25 December 1871.

Malmquist discussed with us, in great detail, the history of the area, especially John D. Lee’s involvement, the history of the fort, the ferry, Lee’s Lonely Dell Ranch and many other topics. 

We traveled with Malmquist to the building at Lee’s ferry where the scroll was found. He explained, in precise detail, the circumstances of his finding of the scroll and its history to the present.

On this talk show we discussed further investigation of this lead scroll. There are many reasons, physical, historical, provenance, contextual and handwriting, to suspect the scroll is a forgery.

Comments and Questions from Callers and Email:

Prophets are not infallible.

Wide latitude of Divinely approved acts of the prophets found in the Bible.

How was the scroll found?

Charles W. Penrose was the author of the Wilford Woodruff Manifesto of 1890.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 23 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

 

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Miscellaneous Topics/Open Forum

Posted in Mormon Doctrine, Mormon History, Anti-Mormon Allegations, Book of Abraham by mormonmisc on October 4th, 2007

Miscellaneous Topics/Open Forum 

Topics

Preliminary comments on a lead scroll, found in 2002 at Lee’s Ferry on the Colorado river, which purports to be written by John D. Lee, to be discussed in the next episode. It attributes the ultimate order for the Mountain Meadows Massacre to Brigham Young.

The ultimate authority in the LDS Church rests with the body of the Church.

Deseret News editorial by Charles W. Penrose  30 November 1889.

President Joseph F. Smith’s testimony in the Reed Smoot hearings.

B.H. Roberts on two types of disciples.

Callers and Email:

A warning that God’s judgement is coming soon.

Comments on LDS views on the PBS two part documentary, “The Mormons.”

Politics among Mormons in the 19th century.

Allegation that the LDS Church is all about collecting 10% from the members to make the leaders richer.

A non-Mormon woman responds to this rabid anti-Mormon caller.

Book of Abraham issue. Various views on the differences between Egyptologists interpretive translation and that of Joseph Smith.

Question about the existence, location and authority of an 1886 revelation to John Taylor.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 16 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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Research Notes

Research Notes

I have a large collection of miscellaneous quotations, sources, references and notes which I have collected on a variety of subjects while involved in specific research projects. From time to time, I bring some of these to my talk show. In this one I presented the following six:

1. An allegation that Mormons murdered Lilburn Boggs, ex-Governor of Missouri, while he was on his way to California.

2. Peter H. Burnett, who was one of Joseph Smith’s attorneys and the first governor of California, wrote his impression of Joseph Smith.

3. John Taylor on truth and science. He taught that an appropriate pursuit of truth by Mormons is to set aside preconceived notions and bias and to search for truth from all possible sources, including the sciences.

4. Orson Pratt’s 1846 sermon, found in a journal entry of Norton Jacob, comments on the dating of creation.

5. Brigham Young speaks of his and Joseph Smith’s views on the resurrection as matters of individual belief. He endorsed individual speculation and belief, but not the assertion that this is the belief of the Church.

6. 21 January 1861 Wilford Woodruff’s synopsis of  Brigham Young’s sermon in which he speculates on the stature, in the resurrection, of those who died in infancy.

Callers and email:

All Mormons are liars, arrogant and do not believe in the Constitution and should not be protected by the first amendment.

Follow up from my discussion with Blake Ostler. Is there an ultimate head God, or is there an infinite order of Gods one above another?

Email from an evangelical Christian denouncing me and Mormonism.

Through the power of God, did the sun stand still for Joshua to allow him time to complete his attack?

Speculation regarding details of the resurrection.

Manifesto, revelation to John Taylor, revelation extending priesthood to the blacks, one mighty and strong.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 9 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

 

Listen Now:


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Spalding Theory of Book of Mormon Authorship

Posted in Joseph Smith, All Podcasts, Anti-Mormon Allegations, Book of Mormon by mormonmisc on September 4th, 2007

The Spalding Theory of Book of Mormon

Authorship 

SpaldingMs3.jpg         SpaldingMs2.jpg           BMtitlepage.jpg

My guests, Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis and Arthur Vanick, are authors of Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? The Spalding Enigma. The authors argue for the view that Solomon Spalding, who died in 1816 wrote two manuscripts about the inhabitants of ancient America, one from 1809 to 1812 and another from c.1812 to c.1814.

The second was acquired by Sidney Rigdon from a printing office in Pittsburg, where he was allegedly working, and then spent some 18 months meeting with Joseph Smith in Palmyra 1827-1829 where religious material was added to Spaldings story/history and published as the Book of Mormon. This has been the most popular theory among non-Mormons throughout most of Mormon history. For about the last 70 years, the theory has been discarded by most, including a number of prominent anti-Mormon advocates. This book is an attempt to resurrect the theory.

I presented some of many points which I think demonstrate to the rational mind that the theory is bogus. The authors countered with expanations and arguments which they think establish beyond doubt that Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon.The following synopsis was written just following this radio discussion.

Mr. Hale said he was skeptical of reminiscences provided by persons as late as 50 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon. He stated that the Spalding/Rigdon theory is entirely based upon alleged memories. There are no pre-1830 sources which described Solomon Spalding’s literary production or Sidney Rigdon’s acquaintance with the Joseph Smith, Sr. family living in western New York.  Mr. Hale said that testimony of early neighbors of the Smith family should have included specific points later brought up by Lorenzo Saunders, if those points were common knowledge. The fact that Howe did not include statements that the Smiths’ neighbors knew of  Rigdon’s frequent visits from 1827-1830 or rumors of Rigdon impregnating Catherine Smith seems to devastate the credibility of Saunders alleged memories on this particular point. Mr. Hale said he did not believe that such a story was in circulation at an early date. Mr. Hale gave three reasons for finding Bennett’s 1831 article unbelieveable. Bennett’s inability to provide the name of a visitor from Ohio beyond “Henry Rangdon or Ringdon or some such word” is inconsistent with Bennett’s claim that he was privy to Rangdon’s suggestion that the Smith’s turn their  “their digging concern into a religious plot.”  He did not know his name, but did know of his secret suggestion to the Smiths.

Bennett, six times, called this man an “ex-preacher” or “ex-parson” from Ohio, during a time when substantial evidence establishes that Sidney Rigdon was not only an extremely active preacher, establishing nine new congregations in 1828, but was, in fact, the most famous preacher in northern Ohio. Bennett, or some unamed source, seems to have purloined a suggestion already circulating that “the first idea of a ‘Book’ was doubtless suggested to the Smiths by one Walters, a juggling fortune-teller” replacing Walters with Rangdon/Ringdon/Rigdon.

Further, Bennett asserts that this “Ohio man” was so “famous” for his “particular felicity in finding out the spots of ground where money is hid,” and who had “much experience in money digging” that his fame had found its way 200 miles from Ohio to upstate New York. When Rigdon became a Mormon in December 1830, he was vigorously opposed by Campbell, Scott, Bentley (his brother-in-law), along with other mininsters, including 3 cousins and another brother-in-law who had all become Disciple Ministers. However, none of these, nor others who knew Rigdon well, even in their opposition, suggested any knowledge of Rigdon’s money digging fame, which Bennett alleged stretched to up-state New York.

Mr. Hale noted that in November and December of 1833 Hurlbut interviewed or contacted at least 83 of Joseph Smith’s neighbors, and Howe published 23 of their statements. None indicate any knowledge of Sidney Rigdon’s presence in the neighborhood in 1827-1830. Mr. Hale finds it inconceiveable that, given Howe’s interest in connecting Sidney Rigdon with the production of the Book of Mormon, he would not have published such statements if he had such. Further, the alleged memories of Saunder’s, Gilbert, Chase, Lillie, Anderick and Tucker, 40 to 60 years later claim many neighbors knew of frequent visits by Sidney Rigdon to the Smiths from 1827-1830, some claiming to have been informed by the Smiths themselves and even alleging a “story was around the neighborhood that Catherine Smith was pregnant by Rigdon.” Yet, none of 83 Smith neighbors provide any recollection of such in 1833. It seems obvious that the late alleged recollections rather reflect knowledge of developing myths to which they added their own embellishments. Mr. Hale said that he believed that Solomon Spalding only wrote one fictional story about ancient America. There were some striking, but superficial, similarities. Spalding claims that while walking near the Conneaught River, he noticed a flat stone. He raised the stone to find an artificial cave in which he found a box. Upon opening the box he found an ancient record. He translated only a portion of the record. Spalding presented himself not as the author, but as the translator of a manuscript written by a man, who with others, came to America by boat, long before Columbus. This manuscript tells of the customs, government, religion and the wars of ancient American nations now extinct. It is filled with strange names of people and places. When some Spalding neighbors were introduced to the Book of Mormon, it was suggested that it sounded like the Spalding story “Manuscript Found” which they had heard or read 20-25 years earlier. Their introduction to the Book of Mormon resulted in considerable embellishment and addition to their naturally faded memory resulting in the insertion of BoM-specific names and narrative information into their public statements. There are no known earlier statements or descriptions of a Spalding manuscript with any specific Book of Mormon names or details.

Mr. Hale argued that Solomon Spalding, according to the authors’ theory (p. 27) produced a second fictional story regarding the ancient inhabitants of the Americas in Pittsburg 1812-1814. Following Hurlbut’s retrieval of Spalding’s Roman story with parallels to the Book of Mormon too superficial to argue for some connection, a new claim was made - two stories by Spalding on the subject of pre-Columbus America. The new claim, not supported by the 8 original statements, alleged that Spalding altered his first plan of writing and commenced writing a Ten Lost Tribes story. According to this new scenario, the Roman Story was first and the Ten Tribes story second. A beginning draft of an unrelated letter in the Roman story on page 132 of the 171 page manuscript acknowledges the receipt of 2 letters “jun 1812.” This establishes that the last 35 pages of the Roman manuscript were written after June 1812. Spalding moved to Pittsburg four months later in October 1812. This supports the authors’ dating of the Ten Tribes manuscript to 1812-1814, if such were ever written — How, then, could Oliver Smith testify that he had read BoM-specific information in a Spalding MS as early as 1809, when the Spalding manuscript with BoM-specific information was not written until 1812-1814 in Pittsburg?

Mr. Hale argued that since 1833 statements for the claims of Spalding authorship state that the lost “Ten Tribes” began a journey from Jerusalem to the New World, that the claims were unbelieveable — that Spalding would never have brought the ten tribes forth from Jerusalem. Before being carried away to Assyria, never again to return, they were the Northern Kingdom and were never residents of Jerusalem. Spalding had studied divinity at Dartmouth College and was a licensed Congregational minister for 8-10 years. He certainly would not have defied the common knowledge among even amateur Bible students that the lost Ten Tribes, or a small group of them, would have begun their journey to America from Jerusalem which had never been their place of residence. Further, the Book of Mormon specifically declares that the Ten Tribes were elsewhere. What seems obvious is that the 8 Spalding neighbors were working in reverse. A number of early 1830 newspapers reported the common false perception that the Book Mormon was about the Ten Tribes or their descendants in America. Operating from this assumption demanded that Spalding’s neighbors, to establish a precise parallel, ascribe to Spalding’s story the common false perception that the Book of Mormon was about the Ten Tribes coming to America from Jerusalem. They presumably looked at the first few pages of the Book of Mormon where they would have encountered Lehi, Nephi, Moroni and Laban. The second sentence of the first page of the 1830 Book of Mormon identifies Lehi’s place of departure as Jerusalem. Their knowing, or unknowing, amalgation of these facts and perceptions seems to be the more likely source of their allege memories.

Mr. Hale doubted Aron Wright’s ability to identify the Roman manuscript shown to him by Hurlbut based upon the handwriting, having seen Spalding’s handwriting more than 20 years earlier. Modern investigators are on record as disagreeing over which old specimens of handwriting can actually be traced back to Spalding’s pen. Hale, however, does believe the manuscript shown to Wright was an authentic Spalding in his handwriting. [I was sidetracked on this point. It is of nominal significance.]

Mr. Hale said that the allegation that the title is “Manuscript Story–Conneaut Creek” is more probably someone’s description than Spalding’s chosen title. This line is on  a sheet of paper in which the manuscript was wrapped. None of the handwriting on the wrapper was Spalding’s. Mr. Hale observed this fact  based upon his comparison of the faint, but unmistakable, style of the 2 penciled “Cs” in “Manuscript Story–Conneaut Creek” on the wrapper, with the remarkably different style of capital “Cs” written by Spalding throughout his manuscript. The authors’ claim (p. 81) that “the writing on the wrapper gives every appearance of being Solomon Spalding’s own” is clearly wrong. From the first chapter’s description of Spalding’s finding of the manuscript by prying up a stone, going into a cave, opening a box and finding 28 sheets of parchment which he translated from Latin, the title, “Manuscript Found,” would certainly be fitting and the penciled line is not relevant. Mr. Hale discounted Mrs. Eichbaum’s reminiscence, because it was first written down at a late date (1879) and because Howe’s book quotes a Mr. Patterson as saying he did not know about Spalding’s MS. The discussion did include an 1842 Robert Patterson statement in Samuel Williams’ pamphlet, nor the later reminiscence provided by Elder William Small. Mr. Hale was certain that Sidney Rigdon visited Pittsburgh as a young man. His response to the appearance of Rigdon’s name in published Pittsburgh letter lists, was that the printing of such a list showed that the recipient had NOT picked up any such letters waiting for him — thus tending to demonstrate that he had NOT frequented the Pittsburgh Post Office to the extent Eichbaum claimed in her statement.

Mr. Hale doubts the value of Arthur B. Deming’s published statements because the witnesses were very old, and separated from the events by some sixty years and Deming offered to pay contributors to his newspaper for their submission of negative statements. Mr. Hale read Deming’s offer in his first issue of Naked Truths about Mormonism to pay a “fair price” for negative material “regarding the origin and early history of Mormonism” “if used.” It seems impossible not to find suspect this form of alleged memory, often contradictory and frequently compound hearsay.

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My Sunstone Experience

Posted in Mormon History, All Podcasts, Anti-Mormon Allegations, Book of Mormon Historicity by mormonmisc on August 21st, 2007

My Sunstone Experience

Sunstone2.jpgAt a session at the Sunstone Symposium three panelists discussed the need for a more aggressive approach to some of the more difficult Mormon topics. The idea they posed was that it would be better for Mormons to be introduced to controversial topics from within the Church rather than by Mormonism’s critics.

I tell my experience of discussing the Trinity with a young Christian Evangelical, following my participation in a session on the doctrine of God in the Book of Mormon.

I comment on the paper I presented at Sunstone on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Oath of Vengeance and read an outrageous charge from the new book September Dawn, which is also a movie scheduled to be released the end of August.

Topics Raised by Callers and Email

John Krakauer’s best selling book Evolution - several different views Can a divorced man become a bishop? Speculation on replacement of Pres. Hinckley’s counsellor, Pres. Faust Succession claims following the death of Joseph Smith Will Bagley’s response to my Sunstone paper on the Oath of Vengeance Are Church manuals going to be more scholarly? Adam God theory Joseph Smith’s testimony

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 12 August 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year.

To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

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The Alleged Oath of Vengeance

NauvooTemple2.jpg The Alleged Oath of Vengeance Beginning in 1847 the allegation was made that the Saints were required in the endowment ceremony in the Nauvoo Temple to take an oath to “use our influence to murder this nation” to avenge “for their killing the Prophet Joseph.”A number of ex-Mormons wrote addition anti-Mormon exposes making similar claims regarding the ceremony performed in the Endowment House in Salt Lake City from 1855-1889. In sworn testimony in hearings in 1889, 1904-1906 a number of Mormons testified that no such Oath existed.They were joined by several ex-Mormons who also denied its existence. Other ex-Mormons testified that it was included in the endowment ceremony.

Perhaps, for a number of reasons, the one most qualified to speak on the matter was Wilford Woodruff. As President of the Church in 1889 he gave an explanation that “avenging” and “prophets” were mentioned in the endowment ceremony in an instruction given to the Saints to pray for God to avenge the murder of prophets and saints. He stated that this was included in the endowment ceremony by Joseph Smith in 1842 based upon Revelation 6:9-10 and this had not been changed. He maintained that Joseph and Hyrum were not mentioned in the ceremony nor was the American Nation considered responsible for the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum and, therefore, was not specifically identified as the object of vengeance.

From his explanation it would follow that those claiming the existence of an Oath of Vengeance for the Mormons to resort to murder to avenge the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum upon the American Nation was an extreme twisting of the endowment ceremony.

Recently, several authors and historians have claimed that this alleged Oath of Vengeance played a major role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I discuss this topic presenting some of my research for a paper 20 years ago. I plan to make available some of my sources and reasoning in an article to be available in my eStore this coming week.

Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 1 July 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST.

If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view.

Your voice will be heard around the world.

Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes

To make a comment, click on “comment” below.

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